Staying in a power zone does not lead to overtraining. Also heart rate isn’t a good indicator for training response. It is affected by way too many factors.
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Yes it does if,
A) Your zones are set correctly, or if you train too often in the upper power zones
B) You can not tolerate the corresponding stress caused by training consistently at a higher level, too much TiZ in certain power zones for example.
This thread (along with many other posts in other threads) would not exist if what yo said was true.
@Bbt67 The points you make do not address the conversation piece.
Here is the post I was referring to:
On some days you will do a threshold workout and only see sweetspot heart rates and on other days it might be VO2 heart rates. That doesn’t imply that your are missing the desired effect. It could be simply too hot or too much caffeine for instance sake.
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Understand, so it is solely on the user to determine if they are overtraining or way out of bounds during a workout.
I have watched the some of podcasts and from establishing a plan perspective I get the focus on power… but during a workout are there not indicators in other metrics when a workout maybe becoming less effective?
Thanks for clarifying. 
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In general terms the plans and workouts within them are set out to permit/encourage progress. Obviously not everyone progresses at the same rate, some are quicker hence the “How do I add more TSS/Workouts?” type threads whereas others are slower leading to the “Can we have 8 day week?” threads. It’s something you have to watch yourself which leads to …
The workouts have specific numbers of intervals that are felt to be most effective, so Kaweah has 6 threshold intervals and Bashful+1 has 21 VO2max intervals. You should get to the last interval (or two or three in the case of the shorter interval workouts) feeling as if you might not manage it. If that doubt occurs earlier then you could be overly fatigued, not rested or maybe your FTP is set too high. Conversely if you sail through all the workouts then it’s possible that your FTP is set too low. That’s probably as good a litmus test as any as to whether a given workout is effective at that time.
So your idea is that in say a 60min workout, our ability to benefit from a workout deteriorates? An interval done at 15mins might not be as effective at the same interval done at 45mins? And that this is reliably indicated by an increasing heart rate?
I don’t understand why “Sweetspot” is alway the main concern when it comes to the TR plans. When I look at Mid Vol SSB 2, SPB and Century Specialty, there is only one SS Workout per week and the week tips + Podcast recommendations are to replace it with Z2 work, if time is available.
If I can do this, these plans are without any SS work, but 3x VO2, Threshold or Overunders per week. If 3x Intervals per week are too intense, there is absolutely no harm in replacing one of them with a z2 ride (with similar TSS for example).
The most important thing I learned over the last two years in endurance training was, that there is no approach that fits all. If a training plan works, is not only highly individual, but also very dependent on the energy level of the day, on a cold over the last two weeks or just bad sleep.
I’d also prefer a software that adjusts the intensity to the perfect zones on any given day on the fly or just throws out a plan I can just follow blindly. But I learned from all these great podcasts with top pro level coaches, that their work is not primarily to write their athletes plans, but teach and give them advice so they can take responsibility for their own training.
The TR app gives the impression that I just need to hop on the bike and don’t have to think about anything. But their podcasts make clear, that this is not the way it works.
If you want a reliable number for a long effort, don’t look at your FTP. You’d want a spirometry for your fatmax. If spirometry is not available, FTP is still not the second best choice. It is RPE, educated by the long training rides. In a Grand Fondo, use your PM only as a limiter during the first hour(s) to not overshoot. (That’s what I learned from TR).
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Maybe not saying it, but asking? At what point should you back off or adjust FTP, and then why could that not be automated. Both active during a workout and to the overall plan itself. How would someone know they are at that point? Could metrics be used vs assuming someone knows when they are at that point?
Even further, but a but a bit off topic, why couldn’t external workouts also factor in a dynamic plan? The static plans, and workouts assume nothing else. What if you slept like crap, what if you are sick or run down? What if you did a 50 mile hike or leg workout yesterday?
For example my lifting app, which dynamically sets a workout for the day wont give me a leg workout after a day I biked. My normal routine is 3 days of biking, 3 days of lifting, and 1 day off.
We are not automatons, we have feelings and for good reason 
Overtime you can see the state of your graphs, completion level and note RPE.
I don’t see a problem that needs to be solved. I see a desire to incorporate HR looking for a problem to fill.
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The problem with swapping out sweet spot workouts on the plan is that they build on each other. It’s miserable to try and increase your time in zone in big jumps. So, you are somewhat forced to do the workouts as planned in the Sweetspot base.
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I dont want to derail this thread but I’d be interested to here more about that on the Strength Training thread.
To be fair if one is already struggling with sweetspot work than their FTP is likely set way too high. Sweetspot might be uncomfortable at times but it’s never supposed to be borderline hard. For that purpose we have longer above threshold interval sessions.
Not pointing at you keoni but there is an apparent obsession among some in this forum that FTP is set too high. This needs to be the absolute last point of discussion when people find work outs hard. Not the first.
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I am not sure this is the case Joe.
I think there is merit in longer sustained training protocols like Kolie Moore. Obviously, I understand people who don’t want to test for that long. Though then they should ask themselves whether they think they could hold their FTP for 30 to 40 minutes. If the answer is “no” and they also struggle with the plans, they should perhaps think about adjusting down.
It will be easier on their psyche, it will help with consistency, it will help with nailing workouts, and it will make them faster.
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…You think the first port of call in troubleshooting should be to assume someone’s FTP is too high?
I haven’t said anything about testing protocols…
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There is no perfect FTP number, that gives you correct training zones.
You can choose whatever protocol you want, with FTP field tests you’ll never get your individual LT1. The Ramp test estimates as fine as the 20min test protocol. (I recently did both and Ramp test was almost 10 watts lower). Training zones are highly individual, so if you really want to find yours, regular spirometry or lactate tests would be the way to go.
But even then: Many trainers have an accuracy of +/- 2%, that means a 4% range! Only this can transform a sweetspot workout in a threshold one.
I agree with @JoeX: Even if FTP is right and trainer is 100% accurate: Differences in day form due to sleep, stress, nutrition, illness, whatever are so great, that we shouldn’t rely on heart rate or power alone, but always need our feelings to adjust the work load.
Using the +/- buttons in workouts is not a sign of strength/failure, but the action of a self-reliant athlete.
I think the workouts don’t need an implementation of a HR metric, but a more prominent note on the RPE values (right now, they are hidden in → “outside” and → “RPE based”.
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Hear, hear.
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HR was an example… Any other metric or derived metric may make more sense.
Is RPE tracked by TrainerRoad?
From my uploaded workouts to Strava I can see a recent Kaweah as 90% intensity and a massive relative effort. Then I can see the following Tayler -2 as rough relative effort, and 82% intensity. The next work out Donner I was toast and call it at 45mins in at a 88% intensity. My point here is this is ME and the workouts are set both individual and plan are based on a point in time FTP test and not something more Dynamic. What if something changes over the duration of a plan? So should the 2nd or third workout have been dynamically backed off due to the effort on the first? I don’t know but am asking the question and the possibility of more dynamic workouts and plans?
No, but you can track it by linking to TrainingPeaks
I believe they are working on some kind of dynamic element to plans or workouts.
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