Threshold at 90% or 100% of FTP

Training
21

I can do 5.5 Vo2max sessions but find 2.2 TH sessions taxing.

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22

If you find threshold sessions hard, it might be an idea to work in some longer SST first to get the mental strength needed for sustained power. Something about 85/90% First. Overs unders are awesome to break the monotony as well.

Also, if you are doing the intervals on the turbo, in ERG mode, I found it terrible. It seems that the trainer runs against you, the fixed power required isn’t natural. I’d suggest doing it chasing the power, not in ERG mode. Sometimes a few seconds of relief is all you need to get over the interval. But ERG mode “doesn’t allow” any relief.

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23

Lots of people on here aren’t TR users.

What kind of workout does 5.5 and 2.2 specifically refer to?

Do you mean like a single 8min threshold interval is very difficult or a workout like 5x8min?

If the first, then your FTP is almost certainly set too high. After 8 min you should feel like you’re starting to fatigue, but not straining to finish but you’re maybe happy the interval is over.

But if you mean like by the end of a 35+min total interval time workout then it’s probably close.

But to answer your original question, I’ve had good luck doing my threshold intervals slightly below threshold. Like targeting 5W or so below. That way you sort of naturally bounce between like 8W and 0W below. Whereas if you target 100% FTP then you’re bouncing between above and below threshold where the additional training benefit would be negligible but the fatigue cost would be much higher.

24

Those are trainerroad progression levels.

25

I understand what they are, but what is the actual workout?

Like # of intervals, length of interval, and %FTP. Just for people without access to the catalog and since there are lots of different 5.5 VO2 workouts.

26

The vo2max is Barkol 4x5min @ 109% - the intervals have a 45 second break in the middle and 5min 39 recoveries between the intervals. The TH session is a custom workout - 3x8min40 @95% with 4min20 recoveries.

27

How does the power (109%) compare to, say, your 3, 4 or 5 minute PRs - assuming you have good, relatively recent, max efforts?

28

That doesn’t mean that TR has accurately pegged your FTP.

From that data, I’m guessing that you have a high anaerobic capacity. With that ability you will bust any kind of ramp test and get a higher number than you can sustain.

FTP should be a wattage you can sustain for over 30 minutes, even 45 minutes to an hour for well training riders. If you are struggling at 8 minutes then it isn’t your FTP.

High anerobic capacity means you don’t fit in the box of the average person with average abilities.

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29

For mental side, you just need get accustomed to this specific effort. But can you describe physical difficulty more precisely to help you find the root cause, something like:

  • tiring quickly: lacking muscular endurance – Tempo/Sweetspot is good way to improve it
  • burning feeling in quads: you might be near threshold but slightly above and it is accumulating faster than you can consume it – either focus on bigger base with Z2 to improve lactate consumption machinery or do over-unders to improve lactate shuttling and tolerating it
  • breathing gets too hard, can’t suck enough oxygen – raise ceiling with VO2max

I am not a coach, some recommendation might be off but point is about describing feelings more precisely.

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30

I see pros doing a lot of efforts at the bottom to middle of their power ranges, especially the tempo and threshold area. You will see them do the vo2 stuff towards the top end though. I personally think they are prioritizing time in zone vs pushing the upper limit in training, likely saving those efforts for testing days and races.

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31

I am often in the same situation, and how threshold intervals feel will vary from person to person.

I posted struggles with threshold PLs a while back and learned something about the feedback I was doing wrong so worth being sure you’re reporting back the right responses to difficult workouts.

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32

I think I’m in this bucket. It starts out manageable but then my heart rate climbs and climbs into Vo2max territory.

33

What did you do to overcome your struggles?

34

Right, then your FTP might be little bit high indeed and you are actually doing suprathreshold intervals. This is the reason why to skip 100% of FTP intervals (unless you are 40km time trialist who actually needs to balance at threshold). Instead, do intervals at:

  • 95%, to be certainly below lactate clearance threshold, or
  • 105%, to learn to handle lactate and accompanying discomfort

In other words, 100% of FTP can go either way from lactate producing/consuming perspective. It is better to have clear focus for your hard day.

35

Did you know that 99% of statistics are made up?

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36

I agree, that your FTP is probably set somewhat too high. I think VO2Max are not best done to general percentages, but need more subjective power targets due to differing anaerobic contribution.

If you can‘t do a workout like darwin (4x10 @ 95-99%) without burying yourself, your FTP is very probably set too high.

To your original question: I usually do my pure threshold work @98%. That leaves a small margin of error, if my ftp is set a bit too high or I‘m not on top of my game. But specifity is king if you train for a specific event.

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37

In short;

  • drop the PL levels.
  • Feedback ‘all out’ when it’s super hard or ‘Intensity’ if you can’t complete

I absolutely did not play with my FTP setting - I would never advise that. Let the system do its job, it will adjust accordingly.

———

In long, this was April last year. The workouts I couldn’t get through I had ramped up quickly from PL 3s to PL 5s as I succeeded on a 4.5 and 5.5 but couldn’t complete them in following weeks.

  1. Near then end of April I marked one cut short due to Intensity.

  2. My FTP kept increasing, small amounts.

  3. My Threshold PL dropped back to the 3s and they became achievable again.

  4. This year I took some time to find roads I could do outdoor workouts on, and although they are not as consistent as indoor TR has me at PL5 for threshold workouts now.

38

OP, do you use intervals.icu?

39

There is a 1.5 to 3.0 PL gap between threshold and V02. This depends on the length of the intervals, and the gap is bigger for shorter intervals. I confirmed my suspicions this difference by tinkering with the workout creator. This means that the difficulty of a 5.0 threshold workout is probably equivalent to a 7.0+ V02 workout. It’s roughly the same for sweet spot (with SS also being easier for the same PL).

TR stresses not to compare PLs across zones, and in this case it holds very true. The standard 2x20 at threshold is a 5.9 PL. I personally try to keep my FTP set where my threshold PL is at least 6. While AI FTP detection is a great, consistent indicator, it is an overestimate for a lot of us because I think it is still based on predicting ramp test performance.

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40

To me, this almost certainly means your FTP is set too high.

When I do true FTP intervals out to my TTE, my HR basically stays flat, my breathing stays more or less consistent (hard but under control, not ragged or gasping), but my legs just start to slowly run out of steam at the end.

It’s kind of an odd feeling if you’ve never done it before. It’s like the effort slowly comes to you and not you going after the effort.

For example, if you have a 40min TTE and you do a 4x10 @ FTP workout then it should probably feel like this.

  • The first 2 intervals at RPE 6/7, it feels like you’re working but the effort it’s getting away from you and at the end you could keep going but you’re happy to stop pedaling.
  • The 3rd interval is RPE ~7, first 7-8min feels the same as before but the fatigue is definitely starting to grow. It starts to take more focus to push the same power but it’s still all under control. At the end of the interval you’re definitely happy for the rest but you know that with the rest you’ll have no problem going again.
  • The 4th interval starts out similar but you’re definitely tired. the first 5 min feel about normal, HR is maybe a touch higher but breathing is still under control. Then the second half as you start to reach your TTE your legs start to load up. You just keep going at your FTP power but it gets more and more difficult to maintain. You don’t need to go until failure but there will be a minute or so where your power stays consistent but your RPE really starts to decouple. Around then is where I usually pull the plug.
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