Thoughts on Summer Training

Training
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Hi All

I wanted to get some opinions from more experienced riders.

My weekly training is roughly:
Mon - 60 mins upper body weights
Tues - 2 hours base cycle (indoors)
Wed - Threshold intervals (indoors) 5x5 at present
Thurs - 2 hours base cycle (indoors
Fri - (60 mins upper body weights
Sat - Usually 2x10 mins or something similar (doesn’t always happen) - Indoors
Sun - 40-65 miles outdoors with wife so mostly zone 3 and pushing it on hills

I’m not natural on the bike. I’m 50, build muscle pretty easily, was a gymnast for a decade (gives you an idea of my physiology), and after some testing, got told I have a good anaerobic engine but poor aerobic capacity…hence doing the polarised and then a more pyramidal style of training.
In the winter, the outdoor ride is a 3 hour base ride but in the summer, I cycle with my wife who isn’t as strong on the bike but zone 2 for me means she’s ambling and gets bored and anything harder and I drop her so I end up in zone 3 but we cycle hills at our own effort levels.

I’ve been cycling for 7 years but every year for the last 5 years I’ve missed the whole summer for an array of health issues so I haven’t cobbled together a full year of cycling since before Covid.
I’m a personal trainer so the upper body routines are non-negotiable as it helps to look like I train with my job.

My fittest was when I was doing a Sweet Spot TrainerRoad block but that was also 7 years ago when I was 43. However, on the sweet spot routines, my heart rate would regularly hit 85-90% of my max and whilst I was great at 40-60 min efforts, anything more than 30-40 miles on the bike and I tanked. Polarised and then Pyramidal training has at least given me better endurance but my power is way down.

So my question - My goals for next year are the Fred Whitton (May) which has about 5 climbs at 20% and then Hardknott Pass peaking at around 33%. I also have a 300km endurance ride to do in a day in June 2025.
Right now, my legs feel weak and if I push it on the 5x5 intervals, my legs take about 4 days to recover.

I looked at a TrainerRoad Build Phase under Sustained Power and the power is typically between 205 - 230 watts so I worry I will lose my top end power. My FTP is 238 watts and the 5x5 or 6x5 intervals, (with 5 min recovery try), I hold at 255 watts which is tough but doable. My heart rate hits about 90-93% of my max HR.

My concern with Polarised training is whether it really suits me as I’ve seen little power improvement in my zone 2 ability. I made some good improvements in lockdown but I was doing 12 hours cycling a week and I don’t have the time for that volume now.

So I wondering if, to progress, I drop my Tues cycle and do leg weights once a week, switch to a Sustained Power TrainerRoad routine, continue with the pyramidal training, or do something different, (shorter 2 min intervals with higher power efforts) to prep for next year?
I’m thinking in Oct I will probably switch to more endurance zone 2 rides again but now seems a good time to get stronger so I have a better platform to build over the winter months.

Confused as to how to progress and if anyone is an experienced rider, would love to hear your input.

Sorry for the long post.

David

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It’s summer…get outside. Just ride.

Unless you are in the Arctic, then you are forgiven.

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The plan you are doing now sounds like 1 day of intensity (wed) and then sometimes you do another on Saturday? Pick a TrainerRoad plan. Let it know what days you want to train and follow the plan. Don’t skip 1 of the 2 days per week intensity. Prioritize those. Be consistent and you will see improvement. Don’t get too caught up in polarized vs pyramidal. Just get on a plan and follow it. Add more volume if you can.

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Hi

Thanks for the reply.
I should have mentioned, if I don’t do the Sat, I do the sweet spot on another day.
Sundays always has hard pushes in as we live in a hilly area.

It’s more the zone 2 I tend to miss if I get short on time.

My question was really, if my training style doesn’t seem to be bringing that much in results, what other options do I have to be more efficient.

The TrainerRoad plan actually isn’t that different from my weekly schedule in so much as a couple of interval sessions and then the rest as endurance. The main difference is in the style of intervals (lower and longer on the Sustained Power build) and much lower in power output.

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90% of the indoor rides are because I’m at work and between clients so can quickly jump on an indoor bike.
So I get people wanting to ride outside in the summer but that’s assuming that’s a good option…which for me, unfortunately it isn’t really.

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But are you building a training program with progressive overload? Macro and Micro periods? Adequate rest? It is hard to tell from your description. It sounds like you push yourself (but I am not sure it is hard enough) a couple times a week and the rest is just some Z2. Again, I don’t think you have a training style problem, I think you have a poor training program problem.

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Hi David, just some thoughts…

  • Those heart rate percentages you quoted seem reasonable.

  • [How] are you fuelling these rides?

  • How do you think of your ride on Sunday? Is it training, a social ride, an adventure, or something else? Training with others can be really tricky. Be clear on the purpose of the ride. If it’s training, what specifically are you training? If it’s not training, how is the fatigue it generates impacting your training? Nothing wrong with “just riding”, especially with others, but it’s a 3-hour ride, so it probably has consequences. Be prepared to adjust the plan to allow for it. I personally tend to find myself treading the line of maximum recoverable dose. And I’m masters too (I’m 44), but part of me still thinks I’m a bulletproof teenager :person_facepalming: so I’m asking these questions all the time. :laughing:

  • Your two hours of base on both Tuesday & Thursday: are they continuous 2h blocks or are they a few chunks throughout those days when you can fit it in? (You said you’re doing some workouts between clients.) About what % of FTP? Are you able to share some graphics of power profiles from them?

  • You 5-or-6 ×5’ on Wednesday… the power numbers suggest 107% of FTP, some would say pushing up into VO2 max. That’s a hard workout for some. What sort of cadence are you using for it?

  • About your Saturday 2×10’ sweetspot: Without properly knowing you or your training history, it’s not a lot of time-in-zone, & I can only guess that you’ve topped out all the gains you’re going to get from it. So you could start with increasing interval duration. Again, be mindful of fatigue impacting your Sunday ride.

  • How long has it been since you last had a proper recovery week? I agree with @KonaSS on doing a plan. You could use the plan builder then fine-tune it. It’ll take care of the progressions mentioned above as well as fatigue. Probably pick the “masters” variant: two intense days per week, & tell it about what extra riding you’re doing. Wouldn’t hurt to hit up support@trainerroad.com a couple of weeks into the plan to get advice on the quality of your workouts & outdoor rides. Give it a few months to see how you go, then if you don’t see improvements, check in with Support again.

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Hi KonaSS

Since I have been following a Pyramidal style routine, 2 workouts are intensity, (one being above threshold and the other being a sweet spot) and the rest is in zone 2.
That’s my understanding of how this style of training should look.
As mentioned, I also add in a few hard hills on my ride with my wife but these are a bit sporadic depending on where we cycle but usually involve some intense efforts from between 3 minutes to 6 minutes.

I was interested to understand when you say there isn’t enough intensity in the program. I’m always up for pushing harder as I enjoy that but I’m not sure my legs ever fully recover from more than 2 interval sessions a week.

I did just look at a FTP Build routine on TrainerRoad and it was really interesting as it dropped my intensities right down. It suggested 4.5 hours a week, (which I increased to 7 hours but it then said I would likely be overtraining).

It formatted my week similar to my present routine with 2 interval sessions and the rest as endurance rides.

I overrode the suggestion to drop back down and it replaced my 5x5 interval session at 255 watts with 5 mins rest to 2 mins effort at 259 watts and then a rest period of 10 mins.
At the end of that workout, I would accumulate 12 mins at 259watts and the rest of the 90 min routine would be recovery. At present, I accumulate 30 mins at 255 watts with the rest being recovery.

The second interval session was 3x9 mins over unders. Presently I do 2x10 or if I have time, I have been at 3 x 10 or 2x15 (but power was lower in the 2x15).

I understand this routine will progress but if, as you say, I lack intensity, TrainerRoad is going to drop my intensity right down so surely I would then lose top end power?

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Hi roleypup

Thanks for your input.

I fuel my interval rides with powder carbs in my water bottle. Find it easier to get that in me than eating.

My Sunday ride is mostly about getting out on the bike and enjoying cycling with my wife. The flats tend to be lower zone 3 and the hills we cycle separately and I just go a bit hell for leather. There’s no real focus on the ride except for being outside enjoying the ride. We try to aim for 50-65 miles if we can, (a shorter ride would be 40-45 miles).
As you said, that ride does have consequences as my legs can take until Wed to feel like they are back up to full ability again. I hate getting older! lol

The 2 hour workouts I do are a straight 2 hour chunk. I’ve made that time in my dairy. When doing zone 2, I stick to a heart rate. When doing intervals, I stick to power. I do this as had a lactate test with a sports physiologist and that was his advice to me.
So the base rides, I stick to under 140bpm which is around 130watts at the gym and between 150-155watts at home. I get really hot and the gym has poor aircon so I think it’s heat that keeps my power down. I do decouple my heart rate and power at the gym at around 90 mins as I think that’s when I’m just getting so hot. Don’t have that issue at home so much.

The 5x5 is always over 90rpm. Inside I tend to cycle around 85-90rpm in endurance training, 90-95 for intervals, and 90-100rpm when outside. This isn’t intentional, I just feel most comfortable at those numbers in each environment.
My cadence, power and heart rate are always quite different outside to inside.

My last rest week was last week.

I was thinking of swapping the Sat sweet spot for some of the over-under routines on TR. They seem to suggest those in their programs.

You are probably right about picking a TR program and just sticking to it.
The only thing putting me off is when I did a ‘Create my Custom Program’, it recommended 4 hours training a week and reduced my 5or6x5 routine to 5x2 mins at pretty much the same power.
The 6x5 routine isn’t easy but I never think I won’t finish it so I would imagine 5x2 mins with a 10 min recovery would be pretty easy and then would I lose fitness as my exposure to that training stimulus would be massively reduced. Obviously the program builds but pretty to much to what I do now.
I also looked at the Sustained Power routine which did look good but you don’t appear to be able to adjust the days it gives you to train or the time you have available. On the Custom Builder, it doesn;t have Sustained Power as an option.

I will probably do a Custom Program but am worried that a lot of time spent building my power will just be lost in the next 5-7 weeks because the program reduces what I can already do by so much.

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Regarding TR’s first VO2 offering, it sounds like it’s given you something like Keeney. It’s often been a complaint of athletes familiar with structured training but new to TR, that TR starts them off too easily because of the athlete’s Progression Levels starting at baseline. It’s also possible that the plan is dialling back your time at intensity in order to manage fatigue or to improve the quality of that intensity… but I’m only guessing. That would be a question for Support. If you want to jump up to a workout similar to your 6×5s, have a look at Wilhelm -2. Unfortunately it doesn’t give you much of a score for threshold, but it’s probably about 4.0 because if you can do that you can probably also do Mansfield +3 or Stevens +3.

Then for your Saturday workout, you could have a go at Tray Mountain -2: 3×12’ SS.

These are not intended to be static plans. Once TR knows your level in these zones, & as long as you have Adaptive Training turned on, it will adapt future workouts to suit.
Here’s an example… I’d finished Traditional Base 2 & was about to start TB3. Threshold PL was at baseline. I dropped in Royce as a bit of an “opener”/level-finder a few days before the start. Completed, marked it “Hard”.

20250503 Royce QuW4Tp8s8Tf_KqE6ZZt4TNY95t6pOYs0dOThsoOZuWs-2048x1365
20250503 Royce QuW4Tp8s8Tf_KqE6ZZt4TNY95t6pOYs0dOThsoOZuWs-2048x13652048×1365 218 KB

TR then went & adapted my next workouts to suit:

image
image1387×1191 91.4 KB

I’ve been cherrypicking plans, & had no problems with changing the days around in the construction of the plan, but also I was not able to change the training duration available. It’s a bit clunky but we can use workout alternates for that.

Another thing that sticks out to me is the difficulty of a Z3 ride for 3 hours that includes multiple punches over threshold for more than a couple of minutes each (my assumption). It sounds a bit like doing Mount Bond (which is already not an easy workout) but then adding a mixture of anaerobic efforts. I’m not surprised you’re cooked after it. Is an e-bike an option for you? If your wife is travelling slower than the e-bike’s maximum speed for assistance, it could pull you back into Z2 for most of the ride, then on the climbs you could turn off the assistance & do some hard work that’s what you want.

In my (somewhat limited) experience with gyms, trying to do cardio in a gym sucks. Poor ventilation, no airflow or extra cooling on the cardio equipment. Fine for someone seeking heat acclimation but crap for the rest of us.

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Why do you have 2 days of upper body weight lifting and no lower body weight lifting? Building strong legs, especially at your age, is incredibly important.

I agree with others that the problem seems to be more overall programming than anything else in particular.

I’ve been doing only polarized training since I started biking/training around 16 months ago and have gone from 222>288 FTP. I don’t think I’ve ever completed a sweet spot or tempo workout.

I’ve had great luck with a threshold workout, vo2 workout, and the rest z2 workouts, with a long z2 ride on the weekend. Try and progress the interval workouts each week in 3 week blocks, then a cutback week with just Z2.

I’ve been doing races and feel that my only lacking component is the endurance into 5+ hrs, but am improving on it pretty quickly and believe it’s just due to more and more time in the saddle.

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Hey @Day :slight_smile:

Thanks for all the info!

It sounds to me and what I am seeing on your Calendar, is that you may be a little fatigued, plus I am not seeing a whole lot of consistency on your workouts with progressive overload + training weeks vs. recovery weeks.

I am with @KonaSS on this one, hehe. I would let TrainerRoad create a custom plan for you based on your target events; this way, you can make sure you’re targeting the correct energy systems leading to your events, plus you’re training at a sustainable ratio of training load and recovery.

Like @roleypup mentioned, the plan adapts as you complete workouts to meet your current fitness, whereas when you’re making your own plan, this is harder to diagnose yourself. Plus, you can always choose Workout Alternates if you feel you need a different workout for the day without compromising the energy systems meant to be trained on a given day. What matters more is the overall structure of your plan (how many hard days you can handle, and consistent riding) and consistency over long periods of time.

A few tips:

  • While TR may be recommending 4 training days initially, you can always manually change the number of days you’d like to train when creating your plan. Along with switching a training day into a Solo/Group Ride. But just remember more isn’t always better. We like to prioritize quality over quantity with good recovery so your body is able to absorb and regenerate to be stronger.
  • Your Sunday rides could be switched to a long, easy ride if you want two hard indoor workouts; otherwise, that Sunday ride can serve as one of your hard days, especially if it takes till Wednesday to feel good again.
  • When adding your Events, pick one of the latter ones to be an A race, and then build an event-based plan.
  • Try to record/sync your strength work so that our fatigue management system can track those workouts as well.
  • More info here: Plan Builder Overview
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Hi Roleypup

Thanks for the reply…really appreciate you taking the time :slight_smile:

I actually did Keeney today.
I decided to plum for a TrainerRoad FTP Builder routine and this was the workout it suggested.
Felt too easy but thought about what you said so stuck with it and will let TR change intensities if it sees fit.
My wife is abroad at the moment and phoned right in the middle of my workout but I could chat to her throughout as the intervals were so short they didn’t push me lol. Usually I would have had to pause or ignore her…so silver linings :P.

An e-bike isn’t an option. We live in a small flat that’s up for sale at the moment. We already have 3 outdoor bikes and an indoor bike so when someone views the flat, we have to put bikes in the cars and take the third bike out with us to the viewers get a proper look at the space…another bike would just be overkill right now.
The Sunday ride is hard as it’s for both of us. I guess I’ll try to dial back the flats a bit and take the flack I may get from behind. But I train to enjoy being outside so I don’t want the Sunday to become a training ride that isn’t enjoyable.

You are right about the gym. It’s horrific. It’s an old Watt Bike and add in the heat, my power is 20-25 watts down on what I do at home and the intensity feels far higher. Bit it’s a means to an end,

Thanks for all your help and support.
Will see how I go on on this FTP builder plan and just try to trust in the TR process. I’m paying for that so may as well give it a bash :slight_smile:

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Hi Caro

Thanks for your time and response.

I was pretty consistent until I got Covid (for the second time since Aug). You can see it on my calendar where training suddenly stops. Also an emergency trip to Norway to see my mum.
It takes me around 2 months to recover from Covid each time and I end up with a noticeably higher heart rate and requiring an inhaler every time I do intervals…hence the lack of progression.

You will see that I started an FTP builder program today…started with Keeney which felt pretty easy compared to what I’m used to but as I mentioned to another subscriber, if I’m paying for the AI racker, I may as well give it a shot.
Usually I would do base training tomorrow but it’s telling me to take a day off so I will do that even if I will feel really lazy and like I’m missing out on training :P.
I’ve set a two month plan to see how it goes and then will start another plan once that completes.

Thank you for the tips. Will definitely take everything you mention onboard and give it a go.
My strongest for sustained power was when I did a Base - Sweet Spot - Sustained Power chunk with TR but I was 7 years younger and my endurance suffered. Your systems have moved on a lot in that time so I will give it a full 6-8 months on a plan and see how I go now I’m a bit old a greyer lol.

One question - when doing the tradition Base - Build - Speciality Phases, can you select days and hours like you can on the Custom Training Plans? I can’t see it but once I come off of this block, I was thinking about starting early for next year’s training.
I like the Sustained Power block in the Speciality Phase but that isn’t an option in the Custom Training Plan.

Thanks again for your time looking over my training. I really do appreciate that.

Regards,
Day

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If you set your A event as Gran Fondo in Plan Builder you’ll get Sustained Power Build.

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Thank you for the additional info @Day :slight_smile:

When manually adding individual phases to your Calendar, you can’t set custom durations or the number of days; however, you are allowed to categorize them as Indoor/Outdoor, Group/Solo Rides, and Zwift Races and drag and drop what days you’d like the scheduled workouts to land on.

If you are going to go this route, you can always choose Workout Alternates to change the duration you want on a given day!

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Thank you :slight_smile:

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Thank you :).

Will have a play at some point. For now, I have started the FTP Builder and even skipped my usual bike training today to do mobility :).
Will give this block a good go and see where it leads me.

Thanks for all your help and support

David

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Welcome! Let us know how it goes :slight_smile: