Not asking for help (though not opposed to any), just complaining. I understand what you and others are saying. But for me, I am playing with millimeters and still can’t quite solve the issues. By conscious trying and concentration I sit now square on my saddle and my feet are parallel to the bike. However, I can choose between left hamstring, left knee and right hip pain when saddle lower and lower back pain, right foot pain and both knees lateral pain when saddle higher. The problem is that the difference in height is less than 2 mm. Moreover, I already have shorter (170 mm) cranks for my height (190 cm) and my saddle is only 7.2 cm behind BB.
I do have even shorter cranks on my other bike (155 mm) which helps. But even when I resigned on the bikefit and focused on myself the progress is slow. As mentioned above, I am now symmetric on the bike but my hips are still not. The right hip is still somehow jammed while on the other hand I also require the saddle to be low for my height (probably thanks to the anterior pelvic tilt).
I’ve been riding sitting up tall riding without hands on my trainer which helped immensely with wrist and upper back comfort while I was teaching myself to sit square again.
Related to your comments on being able to “lay down some power” that sure implies that you may be using more muscles and/or similar muscles in different ways as compared to a lower saddle height.
Considering that your bars stay the same position, you have more effective Saddle to Handlebar Drop & Reach (bars are further out & down relative to your saddle). This may lead to a tighter hip angle through your stroke. It could be affecting your muscle use per above, but it may also be altering your ability to breath a bit from that tighter angle. Additionally, you may be having to support your upper body more since the bars are lower, which could be greater demand on your arms and back.
Note 1) that this is all a HUGE guess without seeing you between the two heights. You may or may not be altering your upper body position in ways as I mention above.
That all above seems to parallel your thoughts that you may not be able to make that work for the rides you have in mind. It implies the bar drop and reach could be at or beyond the limit of what is appropriate for you. it could be that the higher saddle height is “right” and you might need to alter your bars to be higher and/or shorter to get a more comfortable hand location.
How’s that for a start?
PS, you mentioned cleat position in your other reply, which can really mess this all up depending on the amount and direction. I am only mentioning it now because it is a factor that you didn’t mention in the height comments above. It could be minor but impossible to say without more detailed info related to each fit case above. Variables all matter to some degree, so any change should be reviewed in depth to determine if you need it or it can be ignored.
Just to mention something I have had to cover with a handful of clients…
My goal as a fitter (and most others I have spoken with) is to maximize the comfort and riding experience of our clients. Most of the time we can get people far more comfortable and functional than when they came in. Some of those end up with a level of fitting that essentially kills all their issues.
However, I have had a few where we simply can’t get to a level of comfort that they or I would like. It sucks, but some people just have issues that aren’t solvable by fitting. These could be a result of many reasons (like natural asymmetry, injuries, related health issues, etc.) but they serve as impediments to getting a real, comfortable fit. I try to be honest when we hit those points because it is beyond my knowledge and/or abilities at times.
Have you been checked for leg length discrepancy? How about hip impingement? I have and thankfully no issues there but they are worth considering.
You can put a shim between your cleat and shoe to make one leg effectively longer. That might help you find a seat height that works for both legs. The shim could even be a wedge that tilts your foot (and therefore knee) if that helps too.
If you can find a sports physiologist that would be ideal.
Jumping back to this, when you say “feel” is that a literal feeling of more power or that it seems like the numbers (powermeter, speedo, etc) are more or less better?
Thanks @mcneese.chad! I know I’m a special snowflake That elusive comfort level was possible and I hope that I am not that old to achieve it again. But it will require more work on myself than on the fit.
@huges84 Thanks for the tips. Actually, you’ve already gave me those a couple of weeks back. So far, I’ve sorted glut medius tendiopathy/trochanteric bursitis. Unfortunately, is seems it was only a result of other issues and the cause of them all. Now, I am working hard in the gym and that will pay off even if it doesn’t help on the bike.
As long as you have an open mind. The few fitters I went to tried to sell me a new bike because there’s no way someone should feel more comfortable in an aero position than an upright position, and there’s no reason why anyone would need to run shorter cranks than 172.5MM
Sure, crappy examples exist here like any industry with humans involved. Same as can be said for coaches, mechanics or other professions in this realm. I am far from an expert since I am sure I have bias in ways and try to at least recognize that in steps along the way to minimize any negative impact.
I try to let the client guide the process with their goals and bike in hand, then use use my knowledge and skills to achieve that if possible. But even with the best of open mind and skills at play, there are clear cases where the rider and bike presented are not compatible with their own goals.
I have had more than a handful of cases where someone comes in with quite literally the wrong bike (usually 2x sizes off per a “deal from a friend”) or other problems that are incompatible with normal fitting process & component options. In those cases, I am honest and tell them the reason what they have won’t work for their goal. Sure sucks and I know the hit that gives them, but I won’t force a fit that will reflect poorly on me or worse, put the client at risk for a number of reasons.
@Dostring I’ve read back through a few of your posts in this thread, there’s quite a bit there to consider.
I’m not sure where you’re based but I attended a very interesting bike fit course with Stephan De Schutter who employs kinesiology within his bike fitting.
The issues I wanted to personally improve weren’t fixable through bike fit as they turned out to be metabolic related. Changing diet and dealing with a toenail fungal infection have helped improve my position, comfort and performance on the bike. For another attendee, it was dealing with a parasite picked up while travelling.
Maybe some off-bike investigations could help particularly since I read that you were once comfortable.
Thanks for the tip and your interest! While I can not be sure I think my problems are attributable to three things in particular:
Sitting at work, sitting on the bike and sitting at home (no, not those three )
A couple of hard falls on my right hip - having a wider pelvis and being skinny meant it was a direct hit to the hip bone/joint as well.
A couple of years w/ 600+ hours on the bike.
Although Belgium is not out of the question (I’m in the Czech Republic), I’ll first try to work on the flexibility (and strength) of the posterior muscles which would allow me to move my seat higher. And also on the hip mobility which could make me more comfortable with the seat lower and wouldn’t project the pain to the opposite side. Basically, I want to make the range of possible saddle heights bigger by working on issues on both ends.
Hey guys i need your help in regards to cleat position for someone with feet that differ in length by 1 cm.
Pedalling has just felt horribly uneven for the past 2 years and i frequently struggle with knee pain.
I have been to 3 bike fitters and 2 of them told me not to make up for the foot length difference via the cleat position in order not to mess with my virtual leg length (my leg length is the same left to right) which could cause issues further up the chain.
The first fitter i have been and my physiotherapist suggested changing the cleat position according to my foot length.
What’s bothering me the most is that i used to pedal evenly when i first got into cycling now after 3 bike fits and 2 custom insoles i am an absolut mess and even going back to the old setup doesn’t seem to help.
Here is some data from my Assioma pedals for 2022 and 2024.
The left foot is shorter by 1cm.
There is not nearly enough info here to offer any help. At the minimum we’d need to know exactly what type of knee pain you have (one leg or both, where in the knee, when it happens, type of pain, etc.) and contrast that to points prior to when you didn’t have this issue.
Did you change equipment (bike, shoes, pedals, etc.) or have an injury or other influence on your body that may be related to the “everything is good” side to the troubles when they started? What exactly was tried in each of the fittings and how did your body react to those changes?
Honestly, even with that info it’s rather hard to do more than what those fitters had access to in person, but more info is needed to here if there is any hope to offering suggestions.
Happily used Giro Empire SLX (size 44.5) for 6 years with the Giro insole at the highest arch support setting. Recently the carbon sole on the right shoe developed a crack and I replaced them with a pair of s-works torch (size 44) and the green body geometry insoles. I think the length and width fit me perfectly and the left shoe is very comfortable. But I do get a painful feeling on the bottom of the right foot as if I am about to cramp. This pain subsides after 15 minutes or so and is followed by a numbness in the foot. I did one ride with the old Giro insoles into the new shoes and this was fine (although the insoles are a tad smaller than the new shoes strangely). One non-obvious difference of the insoles is that the BG are quite a bit thicker at the toe region.
@antonios I’ll chime in as I was an Giro Empire fan(44.5) with the Giro “high arch” insoles myself. And two years back moved over to S-works Torch(44) and several other Specialized shoes(Exos, Ares, Recon, Torch Lace, etc). I immediately ditched the cheap stock insoles, and tried both the Blue and Green Body Geometry insoles to no avail. I then tried the Superfeet Carbon(Size E needs zero trimming, but also doesn’t fill the shoe too much) and they work phenomenal for me. Done a few 48+ hour stints without taking the shoes off and still been relatively comfortable. Pricey at $60, but well worth it if it relieves any pain.
Are you sure that the cleats are positioned correctly on the right foot? If not you might not be pushing down on the foot straight, causing your issue.
The cleats on left and right are symmetric. I am also quite sure that the cleat angle is correct given that I naturally pedal in the “middle” of the float that the pedals allow. About fore-aft I tried to use the same as the old shoes by taking the point where the big toe starts as a reference point. I think the fact that with the old insoles I have no issues also seems to point towards the cleats being set up correctly.
Do the BG insoles have the distinct metatarsal pad behind the ball of the foot? That might not work with your right foot and you need insoles that are flatter in the forefoot.
The BG shoes also have built in varus wedge that tilts the shoe slightly to the outside. It’s possible that’s overloading some part of the foot so you could try a thin cardboard shim under the outside half of the front of the insole as a quick experiment to see if you need you foot angle to be flatter on that side.
Yes they do have this and call it “metatarsal button”. Maybe that’s it, I will try to find alternate insoles. Suggestions are welcome - ideally arch support, no such button and thin at the toe area
That elusive comfort level was possible and I hope that I am not that old to achieve it again. But it will require more work on myself than on the fit.
