Need is a bit strong.
90% of aero is the rider’s body position, you’re compromising that by using a more upright endurance frame, so there’s little point in caring about aero.
It’s about vanity.
Not really. TT bikes put the rider high up. Aero is about reducing frontal area and being in a slippery shape.
Your can have a mostly flat back when in the drops without a real low stack
You are correct about the body position - but higher isn’t necessarily less aero. Its about getting everything as small as possible. You can get very long and flat and have a low CdA with being higher in the air.
You can absolutely still achieve an aero position on endurance geometry.
Seems exaggerated. I think it can be tough for people try to do their own bike fit to not only know what that hip rotation should look like but also what it should feel like. If you go on the bike fit subreddit there will be lots of posts of people looking like statues on a bike because they’re so rigid. Some of that of course is they’re on a trainer but also it seems some read about hip rotation and posture and it somehow translates to almost a statue pose.
There’s a lack of clarity about what’s being discussed here.
I’m assuming @wooger is making the point that if the same rider has an endurance bike with a fit for that ride type specificity, then a race bike with a fit giving a different position for that ride type specificity, then he will likely be more upright and have a shorter reach on the endurance bike and therefore perhaps it’s expected a little less aerodynamic. Only testing could tell for sure.
However, if the endurance geometry works better to source a bike size to fit a rider at their race power output, then a nod to aerodynamics would seem helpful. Even if it’s placebo, as you wouldn’t want that rider to feel that they’re losing out aerodynamically to their competitors.
I’m not sure we can define what an aerodynamic fit is, can we? Other than one position with a given rider and equipment is more or less aerodynamic at a given yaw and power output etc than another. If a position is just being adopted for improved aerodynamics but isn’t as comfortable for longer duration, lower power, slower endurance rides, it doesn’t sound like it’s a good fit. If there’s no drop in comfort or ability to sustain a more aerodynamic position then go for it.
Added to the stem collection.
- -6 90mm
- -6 100mm
- -6 110mm
- -17 100mm (latest experiment)
Had to run a spacer under the stem now as is low profile, even if it’s only a few mm lower/longer than the 100 it looks faster (and looking fast is half the battle).
Guess I’ll need to get some miles in now to see if it fits.
Quick question.
When going from a seat angle of 73.5° to 74° and a saddle height of 74cm am i right to assume my setback changes by ~0.7cm?
depends on seatpost. Best to just measure with a plumb line or laser from nose to centre bb(horizontal) and from a set place on the saddle to centre bb vertical-ish
I’ve got some questions for you guys.
When you guys are setting setback how much do you rely on the “balance” portion of it. In other words if you have to engage your core pretty strongly to keep yourself up without hands on the bars would that alone make you set it further back or is that just another thing to consider?
Reason I ask is Myvelo fit has me in a pretty neutral setback but while I can keep my balance its tough and its definitely harder below threshold. Of course, my position according to the software is fine otherwise so thats where Im stuck between the two.
Also, I notice(mainly inside) I get some chaffing like right where my upper thigh meets my butt. I am trying different saddles but Im not sure what shape I should be chasing. Right now I know it happens with a Romin and a fabric scoop shallow. Ive tried other saddles in the past I believe something similar happened on the fizik vento. Also along those lines I notice my thighs rub a bit on the nose which is new to me so either position or because I removed my rocker.
Sorry for the long post I am just wondering if anyone has had similar issue and found an answer
I don’t want to hijack your question, but have been thinking about something similar so maybe we can both get answers. No matter how far back I set my saddle, I can’t seem to pass the balance test. Like it I put it all the way back on the rails, I probably can, but then I’m pedaling so far behind the pedal it’s all hamstrings and I have no power. Putting it farther up on the rails means a lot more weight in my hands, but the power returns and I can feel it in my quads like “normal.” I had a 56cm frame, and went to a 54 thinking it would help. It didn’t.
So, the question. Is the balance test the only thing we’re looking for when setting setback? What happens if we can’t get there? I have struggled with weight in my hands that causes fatigue in my traps over several hour rides.
@Gene_Mitchell_Jr Is the chafing happening on both side or just one?
Just a quick and broad (maybe worthless?) comment as I’m short on time right now. The “balance test” is an interesting one and I do play with it on occasion. It may play a bit into overall comfort and even bike handling in some cases. But I tend to pay more attention to basic rider experience and pedal feel over the pedals for saddle fore-aft positioning.
There can be some notable changes in feel and muscle engagement between the max-min range of the saddle rails (along with appropriate height adjustments to match). Shifting emphasis between quads or glutes & hams are key from what I have seen and felt.
I try to set it to the rider preference unless I see clear reason to go in one direction specifically. I do that to “set the engine” of the rider on the saddle with less attention to the bars at that moment. The aim is to get the power production generally set and then place the bars for comfort and handling.
Obviously, this is all connected and I do sometimes have to alter fore-aft with respect to bar position. But I try to limit that and not use it as a “band-aid” unless absolutely necessary by running out of options at the front.
No worries in the hijacking In glad I asked a question of use haha
Both sides it happens. It’s really slight but I just notice it. I do use chamois crème too. I’m wondering if a flatter saddle in the back would help.
I think this is very helpful because I know I kind of got caught up with this focus of balance but I imagine it could leave you pretty rearward. Ive always had to tilt the saddle up to keep excessive pressure off hands anyway. Seems I’m in the minority there.
I trust the software gets me In pretty good position at least as far as Kop goes(which I’m assuming is what is is using for reference). So the weight on hands is maybe just a part of it if you are doing wattage under threshold or near it. I just always saw advice that your hands should be super light on the bars
- “super light” might be a stretch, but at higher loads (around Thresh and above) the torque we apply at the pedals definitely alters the load transferred through our mid body and chest to the hands. Balance test at Endurance will show real different vs Thresh as you note.
- Maybe, but this can be fine with some upward tilt IME. This depends on two main factors.
- Saddle shape. Some of the saddles will actually show a level or upwards when using flat plane between the tip and tail. I use a clipboard and have a few fits with a positive angle in this way. But most are level to slightly down since many saddles have a pronounced ‘kick’ up at the rear with a level or less kicked up nose.
- Bar reach & drop. Some examples of reach and drop may benefit from an upward tilted saddle. This relates to that bar drop but also how the rider sits on a given saddle. Hip roll rearward (posterior) may benefit from more upward saddle to give some stability. Neutral to forward hip roll seems to land a rider more on the Pubic Rami than the Ischial Tuberosities, which gives a different level of stability.
All that to say that as long as a person isn’t hitting extremes in saddle angle (exceeding may +/- 5*) you are probably ok. But I find that people often tweak saddle angle to solve a saddle pressure issue and make it worse in many cases because the real source of the problem is often a different issue that needs addressed first.
This actually answers another question I have had in the past the starting point for “level”. As my current saddle sits its perfectly level if you were to put a cutting board on it and measure. However, when looking at it from the side it appears nose up. So then maybe I am misinterpreting when I see people fine with level or slightly nose down in that its actually from a level place that could be nose up to start.
I think the kick in the back is what usually rolls me forward to where I need that slight tilt to stop from creeping forward so much.
This helps a lot because I think I have focused too much on the balance portion when making adjustments on my own and thus Id end up so far back instead of relying on the feeling of muscle recruitment and what I want to feel (ideally both quads and hams/glutes)
Very helpful Chad!
That could also be your saddle being a bit too high. I swapped to shorter cranks but didn’t adjust my saddle at that time, so it lowered my effective saddle height. I found that I suddenly was sitting a bit farther back and was using more of the front to back range of the saddle. Then I raised my saddle to get back to my original effective saddle height and found my self sliding forward on my saddle like I used to. So I put the saddle back down and I’m really liking it.
I got a fixie for as a city bike, two questions:
- It is very „agile“, steering is super fast (short wheelbase?), since I‘m going to change the handlebar anyway, will a longer reach improve stability a bit?
- Is riding a fixie somehow bad for pedalling form? (for riding other bikes)
I like it since it‘s something different, but could switch it to single speed. 
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Yes, lengthening your distance from the steer tube to where you grab will slow the steering, but it will be minor unless you make a major change. Just keep in mind that this also has the tendency to open your reach from the saddle and alter your fit as a result. Additionally, that further forward position places you a bit more “on top” of the front tire, which can make a bike feel more twitchy. So, you just have to see if there is an even give/take or you actually gain the stability you want.
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I think plenty of people actually consider fixed riding a good thing. The “braking” aspect that can be applied is unique and a different way to load the legs, which seems like a key reason that people employ them for some training reasons.
The members of the Old Roadies Guild will tell you that riding a fixie will improve your pedaling fluidity…they will then inevitably show you this clip. (Note - this only works if you wear a LS wool jersey on rollers in your garage without a fan)
