ya, we talked about all things stem. Bruce has been fitting for about 20 years and covered all that.
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Good deal. Sounds like a great fitter. 
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@mcneese.chad looking for adviseā¦
Riding and racing for decades. Never had this issue which is too much weight on hands causing a little numbness in the hands and tightness in the neck shoulders and arms.
I just built up a 2022 Emonda size 56 from a Scott Addict RC size 54. The Trek STA is 73.3 while the Scott is 73.6. The Trek reach is 39.1 while the Scott is 39.0. I took the saddle and group off the Scott and just moved it over. So, dropping a plumb line from the saddle my setback is the same; saddle height is the same; reach is the same; bar height is the same; saddle tilt is very close if not the same; same shoes and cleats and cleat position.
I rode 3 hours Monday, 3 Tuesday and 3 today. Iāve been tweaking things every ride and several times during the ride. Tomorrow will be another 3 hours. As it sits now the saddle is 5mm back from where itās always been and the top of the bars are maybe 5mm higher. The saddle is now a touch lower maybe 2-3mm from original.
Any things Iām missing? I feel balanced. While riding tempo I can remove hands from bars for a while and not fall fwd. If not resolved this week I plan to see my fitter who has done fits for me for years.
Upper back pain for me usually means too much weight on hands which is caused by the saddle being too far forward and/or saddle being tilted nose down (be careful, even a slight tilt change might do that). On the other hand, numb hands are for me caused by too long of a reach - that is a saddle too far back as I donāt switch stems very often.
Iām riding with a couple of hex keys in my pocket. A position that seems like revelation one day is unbearable a couple of days later. The crank length might be the culprit but it is not that easy to change as I have a spider with a power meter.
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Youāve some some great work and setup from what I see. Here are some questions and thoughts to start:
- Are these the actual Frame Reach values per the geo charts?
- Can you explain your actual measurement of this value? Just want to understand the landmarks you use so I can offer any guidance without guessing.
- Again, just checking to understand your actual method and landmarks here?
Is the component group identical or different between the bikes?
- Even within the same brand, there can be differences in the final grip location on the hoods that changes the true functional reach and even wrist angle.
Essentially, I am trying to see if there is a different āneedleā in the haystack that might be a real difference even though all the other numbers are close or identical. Itās a bit crazy how small a difference can be in the right area to lead to a different feel.
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Yes.
I measure from the back of the saddle to a point on the top of the hood. Same point on both hoods.
Iāve always measured bar height from the floor to the tops.
The saddle, cranks and group are the same. The bar had to change from the Scott as the Scott was 1-1/14 steerer and looked really bad even with the adapter. The bar I used I moved off my gravel bike which is the Pro Vibe Aero bar. Slightly different reach/drop with the Vibe about 5mm more each. Bar width the same.
- Presuming identical saddle and hoods, this is a solid method.
- This is potentially problematic. It is āconsistentā but flawed since it does nothing to evaluate the height relative to your actual position on the bike (mainly the saddle).
For example, if all else is equal except the BB height is 5mm different between bikes (and assuming identical saddle height & fore-aft relative to that BB), the functional difference in Handlebar Drop between bikes will be 5mm, even if the bar height to the ground is the same.
To avoid this issue, itās best to measure handlebar drop relative to the saddle top.
The typical measurement is top of saddle to top of bar at the stem (B). I also make sure to check it to the lower curve of the hoods if the bars and/or hoods have any notable angle up or down. That can end up with 10mm variation that is totally missing from the bar location.
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That may well be part of the issue. Maybe I am confused, but you mentioned moving your saddle 5mm rearward on the new bike, but that matches the saddle back to hood reach you measured?
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Considering the bar reach is 5mm longer, Iād have expected the saddle to need to come forward to match that old measurement.
Correct.
Ok. I used to do this and looks like Iāve got some measuring to do. Thanks for the reminder!
Yes the set back is currently 5mm back. Current bar is a 110mm vs the old at 120mm.
I think the difference might be bar height. I need to do some investigating. Thanks for the heads up! Glad I askedā¦
edit: only problem is I donāt really know the saddle/bar drop from previous bikeā¦
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- You may be able to fake it via reverse analysis. Check the BB height between the frames. Assuming identical wheels and tires?.. you can then estimate the saddle to bar height with that BB delta and the original floor to bar height.
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Same wheels/tiresā¦I think the BB height is the same but checkingā¦Awesome thanks!
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Not sure if I shared this before, but predictablyā¦ I have a Google Sheet for recording bike fit & setup dimensions. Feel free to steal a copy and fill it int.
Ideally, I do a sheet for all of my bikes so I have a full record of all the dimensions that matter in case I make changes or want a starting point for a different bike.
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@mcneese.chad bars needed to come up 1cm. With that the saddle feels normal again. No feeling of excessive weight on hands and neck/shoulders not sore. Turns out the set back is right where itās always been. Long story short, I bought a new PM/cranks and the old ones were at the shop being installed on a gravel build. I had the old one marked and after getting it home both bikes measure the same (same saddle and STAās within 0.3 degree). Thanks again!
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SWEET!!! Glad you got that sorted out well now.
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Hopefully a fit improvement to my TT bike tonight. I havenāt intentionally changed any key dimensions. The point load on my elbow how it was set up however could see my hand go numb and on longer TTās it could cause my whole arm to go numb and sore. So thanks to a mate I changed the cups bracket and added angled spacers below the cup hopefully that will spread the load. It could be just bad circulation as a result of my chemo a few years back and I have to look at something else 
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Hard to see on the pic but if the clip edge (step on the rear of the cleat) is square and a reasonable thickness youāll get a bit more out of them. Iāll usually let my left cleat wear out but I replace my right cleat earlier when there is any sign of wear as thats my dominant leg and I donāt really want to be coming out of that on a sprint. Where as with me unclipping on the left they lose the pads faster but are still fine for the force I put through them.
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With any wear indicator completely gone get a new set.
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Those look done to me.
But my personal test is to clip the shoe in with my hands, and wiggle in all directions. If you feel any real āslopā or ātwistā that is not the designated āfloatā, toss 'em.
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This foot issue is becoming a real āPainā
I joke, only to keep from screaming. Iāve got custom BG Fit heat moldable insoles, shoes that have been fitted correctly.
I get to about two hours on my local XC loop and I start to get ball of the foot pain. My cleats are about as far back as they can go.
I havenāt ridden on the road to see if getting past the two hour mark shows up on the road, but thatās not where I want to ride the most.
It sucks to have to stop riding because your feet hurt and not because you couldnāt go longer.
Anyone know a fitter that has extreme experience with the shoe/pedal interface?
Hump
My bike fitter told me that those custom orthotics sometimes donāt prove enough support, since they often mould to the foot which might be in a state of collapse.
So instead of actually supporting the foot, the orthotics just follows the foot in its āfallenā state.
Got a pair of G8 insoles and started using the highest support, and boom, all my issues gone.
Had issues with knee tracking due to excessive pronation.
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