Sweet Spot Progression

When you say your TTE is 43min … are you saying that you did a test ride at current FTP, and lasted 43 minutes?

I did a 49min Zwift race with avg 292w. After that race WKO5 estimated my FTP at 293w with a TTE of 43min. My PD curve is well fit.

1 Like

I think that is a good idea.

I can do on wednesday strength and evening Z2 ride and on saturday in the morning a ride and in the afternoon strength.

1 Like

Three things:

  • Move strength after hard rides, or just do easy rides after strength days. Easy being Z2.

  • I would conduct a formal FTP test of 20min or longer to confirm that FTP ASAP. Taking FTP, even from WKO, from a race effort is prone to error as they are usually not sustained efforts.

  • With an FTP bump of 4%, be more conservative with your power at SST. Start at 90%, maybe even 88% for a workout or two and progress TiZ. Once you’re at your goal, move power up to 92% or so.

That was a big jump in FTP. Confirm it with a test ASAP.

3 Likes

Agreed here with others @PattyP . Ideally you should have 18+ hours after a strength training session and before a higher intensity/more demanding cycling session if you want to get the best adaptations of concurrent training (only 3+hrs is necessary if you do the cycling first… unless you are looking for other adaptations)

Scroll to the bottom (“Science-Based Recommendations for Training to Maximize Concurrent Training”) and read the bullets if you don’t want to read the entire paper,

2 Likes

Thanks @kurt.braeckel !

Yes i will change my strength day in the week. I think my FTP is around 290w. The week before the FTP move up to 292w i did a flat race with trainerdifficulty on 10%. This was a steady all out effort for the first 27min, and i think for the first 35min for 290w avg. The race where my FTP going to 292w i did also a race with trainer difficulty around 10%, but the parcours wasnt flat, so there are some hard efforts inside the first 27minutes.

I will try next week again 3x20 between 88-90% from 290w. Thanks!

1 Like

As it happens my phenotype is a TT’er you might be on to something.

Although my natural phenotype is probably different, I might have trained myself to be a TT’er although I don’t do TTs lol

Dont use Zwift races, or any races for that matter, to use for FTP testing.
Run a 20-30min max effort test and see where that puts you.

Also trying to follow what you said, you increased FTP 4%, your TTE is 45min, but you are doing 3x20min SST? That’s a big workout to jump into following increase. Starting with 2x20 might be more appropriate, and using 90% target rather than 93%.

1 Like

Thank you @RONDAL

Why not using Zwift races with trainer difficulty on 0% so you can give a stable effort.

This is a race a couple of weeks ago with the first 31min 290w. The VI is 1.002 so i think sustainable…

This is the Joe Friel point-of-view from 2011 blog post:

“All that’s required is running (or riding) as hard as you can possibly go for 30 minutes ALL BY YOURSELF. It must be solo. Doing this as a part of a race or with training partners will change the outcome. Your number will be too high. If you want to do it with others or as a part of a race then you need to make it 60 minutes duration instead of 30.”

Source: Determining your LTHR | Joe Friel

Something to consider.

3 Likes

Thanks.

I know that when you ride outside with others you cant do a good FTP. But in 2011 there was no Zwift. What do you think about TT race in Zwift, or normal race with 0% trainer difficulty, so you can do a flat effort. You ride by yourself and dont use other riders…

In a Zwift race or TT race i can go a littlebit deeper to reach physical max…

And the reason for this - it’s a different environment than what you are going to train in.
I’m jacked up to do a race, adrenaline, etc. That absolutely lowers RPE and allows me to perform better. There’s no way i’m in the same mindset at 5am

1 Like

If you did it in Zwift you should be able to do it solo again. Use the second number.

But with the race files into WKO5 i cant use the model anymore…because sFTP and al the graphs is automatic set to 292w. And iam now for 2 extra weeks in SST block, so i can after 3 weeks do again a FTP. I will do it outside.

Indeed in a race you can perform better because of the adrenaline etc. But thats your physical max…and your FTP need to have a real max effort. I dont understand why it isnt good to find your REAL max. Max = max!

Because, as you pointed out in your post earlier that spurred this discussion…you can’t hold the numbers in training that you did in a race.

No one here is going to stop you from using the 292w, we are simply pointing out the issues related to it for training.

Yes i understand. But there must be more people with WKO5 have the same problems. Higher numbers in race than in a FTP effort…so that gives the model a wrong outcome…

Maybe @TimWKO can give us more info?

Chiming in here, but have responded to @PattyP on PM as well: there’s a lot of work that’s been done between 25 and 35 minutes at powers in excess of 290W. To me, setting FTP at 290 is conservative enough, alongside the understanding that TTE is now lower. So, I would:

  • Set training FTP to 290W.
  • Train SST intervals starting at maybe 3x15 or even 2x25 and set to 90% (rather than 93%).
  • Move strength training to another day or after the SST work.

Push TTE out at 90% of the new FTP, then raise power once it’s back out at 90+min.

Anyway, based on the files and graphs I’ve seen, I think FTP is higher but with a significantly shorter TTE here.

2 Likes

I’ve skimmed this thread a few times, and over the last few days I’ve been slowly going through it and making notes of the ‘golden nuggets’ that pop up – I’m gonna put them into a Google Doc and can share it here, if people would like.

I’ve almost completed SSBHV1&2, now thinking about a 4-week threshold block next.

My mFTP is 352 (based on a 20’ max effort at 363w end of Jan I think), though my ramp test a few days later came out as 330, which felt about right for the SS work. FTP now is 335-340 based off of feel.

Taking TTE minus 15-20mins gives me 361-365w. 95% of that is ~345w. I’m planning the following progression over three weeks:
3x10’ @ 345
3x12’ @ 345
3x14’ @ 345
2x20’ @ 345
2x22’ @ 345
2x24’ @ 345

That will take me from 100% TTE to 150% TTE.

My schedule will likely be:
M - off
T - 30-48’ @ 345 as above
W - 1.5hr z2
T - 30-48’ @ 345 as above
F - 1.5hr z2
S - 30-40’ of O/U e.g. 2x20 of 2’ 90%, 30s 110%
S - 4hr z2

What do you think?

4 Likes

I think it looks good. It’s hard to really comment as it’s highly personal. How do you feel about that Saturday workout? IMO, 2 min on is good, but the 30s off @ 110% isn’t high or long enough. I’d bump that up to 115-120% or make the over longer. Or start there and then progress.