I ran into a wall HARD this week now that i am into the 150% TTE SST sessions. Just super flat when I tried hitting workouts tuesday and yesterday. Going to take today off, easy spin tomorrow and try again on the weekend when i’m not also dealing with work noise and 5am starts.
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I cut my 50min block in little blocks from 1 to 5min. With difference in power between 88-94%. So i have a lot of microgoals. That feels better than 1 block of 50min. Over the whole block iam around 91%.
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This makes perfect sense. Do you think relative newcomers to structure (and without races yet) are selling themselves short by just pushing ftp for a while? Are we shooting ourselves in the foot not bothering to push out that TTE very much with a sub-year training age or just ride it out and circle back to this when the 5% per month ftp bump hits a wall?
My mind wants to compare it to linear vs more periodized training for lifting. You CAN do the more complicated training program but why bother if you can still put 5lbs on the bar every week. Your body can only adapt so fast and if doing the simple thing is working, just do that. Is that fair here, or is extending out that crappy TTE to something usable when the linear gains fall off going to be worse than if one had kept up on it?
Fwiw, I think for complete newcomers to structured training (I guess is what you mean with sub-year training age?), then the TR plans themselves probably have adequate “extensive” work within them. As others have noted further up, for plenty of new riders, holding sustained power can be really hard. Working up to 20-30min SS intervals is probably plenty.
However, I think there are other benefits to incorporating longer SS/threshold work as you begin to improve: most notably, knowing what threshold riding actually feels like so that, if anything, you’re better placed to avoid the trap of setting your FTP too high as you begin to hit the first “plateau”.
Beyond the training effect, just knowing what it feels like to ride at SS/threshold for an extended period of time - without interruptions - is valuable for a host of reasons, but as much as anything, to avoid overtraining…
My opinion would be that anyone who is still subject to new riding gains should push FTP, and then once they start to stagnate in terms of FTP, work on extending TTE. IMO this helps to consolidate those gains and build better long-term fitness. So I would have anyone who is off the couch simply work on building aerobic endurance and FTP, but not through the same intensive protocol that someone like me specifically uses.
That’s the fun part about “newb gainz”, you can get them in a lot of different ways. Once those stagnate, focus on extensive training to raise TTE bake in that fitness. Then no matter what happens, you’ll probably come back at a stronger starting point whenever you come out of your next offseason.
With respect to the complexity of the training program - I agree with your analogy. Minimum effective dose… there’s really no reason to do aggressive Over/Unders like we’re talking about here when you’re achieving 5% FTP gains from sweet spot work!
I was just throwing out less than a year of structure but “Whenever you stop making substantial ftp gains every month following the cookie cutter” was closer to the intent.
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Circling back and quoting my own post here,
I’m pretty convinced that this structure is too much work for me. I’ve had a “failed” workout each of my three weeks, last night I wasn’t able to suffer through 2x28 @ 94%. So I’ve “failed” one each of the core workouts, though admittedly last night’s wasn’t a terribly impactful “failure”. I’ve considered the over/unders and FTP intervals the key workouts.
There are two things I’ve done wrong here:
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Too much intensity. I’ve not really heeded Tim’s suggestion of 10-15% of total ride time as TiZ for threshold. I’ve done more like 20-30% depending on the week. My best week of training was the week where my Wednesday workout was a 15 min MMP test followed by TAN tempo. I then nailed my FTP intervals Friday, and only “failed” Monday’s over/unders because I tried too aggressive a progression. I think there’s a reason for that, and I need to scale back the Wednesday work to be a MMP test + tempo or Z2, rather than trying for a third quality interval session.
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Too aggressive in my progressions. I’ve covered this already.
Caveat: I’ve had a lot of external stressors the past few weeks. I’m a sleep apnea sufferer and my CPAP crapped out about two months ago; starting a new business with my wife; loss of a clubmate. I can’t fully pin this entirely on my structure, but I think it’s too much.
For example, my legs are physically sore today, still after Monday’s O/Us. That rarely happens to me and is a pretty good indicator of overreaching a bit too much.
I’ll hit Friday’s 3x16 FTP intervals and add a bit of Z2, see how I feel. Saturday will either be 4-ish hours Z2 or perhaps a long low-zone (88-90%) SST workout if I’m short on time, then a recovery week and into a VO2max block.
As I said, my correction from the above build would be to make Wednesday strictly a shorter single effort (e.g. an informal PDC test) + Z2 or tempo if I’m feeling good. The bottom line is less time overall spent at threshold.
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I wonder if the mental side of this has legs for someone early in their training like me (and I am sure many many others here).
I am 7 months in, past what I think of as noob gains but still improving at a far faster rate than an experienced athlete would ever dream of. At the end of Nov after a SSB2 block I did 2 weeks of extending TTE. I did this mostly because I was traveling and had the option to ride outside for that time when its snow locked at home and I am learning what I respond to. I am sure I got physical adaption from that, but the ability to just put up with the suc for an hour and a half felt like it had a larger impact.
These long threshold and O/Us train HTFU and that might be the very reason for a newb to do them. I may already be adapting at 100% of my rate of change physically but it sure seems like thats only half of this sport in a race.
For example, in my last few “shitty virtual race world that shall not be named” races I held 10 watts over my FTP for my average for an 1:15. My ftp in TR is right if you go by workouts being hard but doable and failing sometimes. I was almost never at my ftp it was all over under but i produced ftp+10 average for that long and could have done 30 more min. The idea of trying to ride an 1:15 AT my ftp steady state is a hard NOPE for me. I dont think I could do 40 minutes to be honest, but I can do double that for 10 watts higher if i let the power move around and watch the average. This has to be mental right, cause physically I did the thing?
I’d caution using a race, even a Zwift race, as an FTP test. Was it a steady state effort? Odds are it was not unless it was something like an AdZ climb or similar. Average power for a long duration and sustained power at MLSS are not the same thing.
The other thing I’d point out is that for TTE extension, I would not prescribe over/unders and work at FTP. The sweet spot progressions here and tempo riding alongside your periodic long Z2 rides are the ticket there.
Thank you for calling it out, I have made mistakes like that in running in the past. I am fully aware of it at this point. I do get that ftp, especially on TR, is more like a training max. Its the thing you use to set your working load, nothing more. You dont use your meet 1RM to set your weekly lifting loads. Was more pointing out that I can ride way over my ftp for an hour physically so there must be some mental part in doing it steady that I can also be working on over time. I kindof suck with dealing with the quiet shouting that is threshold.
The race was not terribly steady. Hard start, then paceline. It has become pretty common for these races for me but I am too new to know whats ‘normal’. 10 minutes at 120% to hold onto main group (yet I struggle with 3x3x9 at 116%, but race motivation is a thing i guess), hold onto group till i cant, ride at 90% till i get caught by group of 2 or 3 then take turns at 120 for 1 minute and 3-4 minutes 80-100% till its my turn again. Is it pretty common to be able to push your average well past your FTP if you are out on small break away that actually works as a team? We were in the notorious breakaway off the back…
Thank you for the insight. Its fun to mess with the ideas even if i dont actually need them yet.
Something must be wrong here. I doubt 10 minutes at 120% is possible even for the most anaerobically gifted athlete. Especially part way through a workout/race with ‘work’ already in your legs.
You also say you can go 10w over FTP for 75 mins. Well that means the old number is no longer your FTP. 75 mins is an impressive TTE, so it seems you are also a strongly aerobic athlete…
What I’m getting at here is that your FTP is set wrong possibly by a fair bit.
I suspect you are right, but I am not sure what to do with it. fwiw that 10 min is from the gun not part way in but your point still holds… its still harder for longer than is realistic if my ftp was right. I must not have been. I was doing 10 min of 120% of what my TR ftp is currently set to. My ftp must be higher but I am just barely able to complete the harder of my workouts each week. If i set it to the ftp these results suggest I dont think I could keep on top of my program.
It sounds like more of a motivation thing if you can outperform your TR FTP by so much in a Zwift race.
Not sure what to suggest because my plans have me motivated and excited to see what the results will be if I work my ass off and stick to the plan. Possibly incorporating Zwift (running simultaneously) to your hard TR workouts could be a carrot.
But I do think you need to re-test that FTP to make sure you get the most of your workouts. If you then struggle with certain types of workout then you could tweak the %, and focus on working on the weaknesses.
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Agree with @4ibanez, odds are your FTP isn’t correct or you’re misrepresenting what actually happened. I doubt anyone is maintaining 120% of FTP for 10 minutes without some serious recovery at the end of it and doing another big effort. Maybe you average that with burst/recovery, but even then… that seems high. In the Zwift racing I’ve done, I agree - the first 10 minutes are hard, but a lot of it is surging then soft pedaling to stay in the middle of a dynamic group.
But the rough paceline description makes some sense. The difference between what you’re doing in those virtual races and an FTP test is that your FTP test is a steady state effort, whereas in the races you’re getting recovery. Even not pedaling for a few seconds is recovery, so when you come off the front and slow to those 80% efforts, that is significant recovery relative to what you get riding at your no-kidding FTP for that length of time. Whether or not you can do that such that your average power is significantly higher than FTP for a 75 minute period, I seriously doubt that.
Do you have a graph of your power for that event? I’d be interested in looking at it to give you a better/more definitive answer.
Looking on my phone it looks like i overspoke and its closer to 12% and 115% for 10 than 120%. Not that it matter much cause I struggle with 3 minute repeats at those numbers. I will get a couple examples when I get back to my desk. I do have a race next wednesday and a ramp test the 8th that i will be able to share as well.
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Tuesday’s Threshold:
Tonight’s O/U
I started with the patio door open from the start and faired much better. Didn’t even notice any lingering lactate for more than a few seconds on the Unders until the last block. Tempted to turn them up to 92% for next weeks session, but afraid doing that and adding more time might be too much. Honestly, These were enjoyable and passed the time quickly, but I fear they may have been too easy…
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I envy you in this case, as this type of workout is the hardest for me. So up % of unders or simply go longer. You can always do them by feel - if they easier, up unders during the workout - now you know how they feel and what is best for you.
Does being able to hold longer periods of SST (2 x 40 min, 1x60 min) not equate to being able to up your ftp and start all over again?
Pro’s do really get to see the top end of their ftp I think, so when they max out duration they can’t go much further. But for us amateurs? I always think that it’s just an endless loop where I get to a certain level of long SST, then up my ftp and then start at 2 x. 15, 2 x 20 min again because I got stronger.
Not necessarily- you assume linear relation between improving TTE and FTP. Not to mention that 2x40 or 1x60@90% is nothing spectacular if your TTE is 60 minutes. I can hold 90%FTP for 120 min and my FTP was not moving up. It all depends what is main limiter for FTP to move higher.
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Might I ask what did you do afterwards? You built TTE to 120 mins, FTP didn’t increase, then what?
I’m asking cause my TTE is 60mins, did Phoenix+1 for 75mins@ 85-90%, plan to progress up to 120mins (120%, as Cusick suggests).