This is what I have down the road if everything goes as planned.
3x12-4x10-2x20-4x12-3x15-3x20 a big jump the last week.
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Earlier this year I followed a Threshold progression of:
3x12, 3x15, 2x20, 2x24, 2x28, 1x45, 2x30
ā¦all done at ~97-98% of FTP, ie. being conservative w.r.t. FTP number. After some rest I followed that up with a full-form (KM) FTP test, managing 55mins averaged at my FTP.
I was intending to spend time now following a TR General Base block - my question was really about what PL to begin the Threshold work at bearing in mind my stale PL - but I think Iāve talked myself into doing something akin to the above again instead 
.
Thanks for the input.
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Most of the time, an experienced athlete will know when threshold has gone up. So when I test long-form stuff like that is pretty subjective based on workout feedback as well as the data.
When I was training, I rode threshold by feel. That can be tough for people. Many of my clients want/need a directive power, and I will pretty frequently have them ride at what I have pegged their threshold at (so 100%) largely because I am usually somewhat conservative with their FTPs anyway in most cases. Iām not going to give someone 15 extra watts based on an 8 minute effort or something. Iām going to need to see it to believe it in most cases, and I have about five different things I look at when pegging someoneās FTP from data along with subjective feedback. Iāve gotten pretty good at it.
I always tell guys they can fudge around with the numbers a little bit. I believe most of my threshold workouts have a target power range of 95-102%, and I usually put in the description what I want for that day (e.g. 3x15 at 320W), but always, always give the athlete the ability to raise/lower based on how they feel that day. Threshold changes daily based on a host of factors, so you have to allow for that, which is why itās silly when people say āmy FTP is 282.65Wā. No it isnāt. Itās 280. Work from there.
Hopefully that answers those questions.
My only quibble with is is the 4x12 given thatās an 8 min jump in TiZ (20%). Now, you reduced the interval time so if 2x20 goes well, you can probably manage it, but thatās the thing that jumps out at me. Why not 3x15 first then 4x12 if you want to go that low again? And then, why not 3x15 or 2x22 ā 2x24? 
And yeah, 3x15 ā 3x20 is a big jump. If threshold is conservative and youāre working at 95% you can probably get away with it. Ultimately what often happens once youāre around 50 min TiZ, is I program 3x20 and then say: Do 2x20. Get as far into the third as you can without burying yourself.
The next week, I give the same workout, and say ādo more than last weekā until we hit 3x20 clean through. Usually 2-3 of those freelance 3x20 sessions will get them there.
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What happened?
Sorry, poor choice of words that may sound like he fell ill. Iāll change it. He was banned from the forum.
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Wonder why, none of his still visible posts are that inflammatory.
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He had some things directed at Nate and some of the staff that werenāt well-received, all centered around some of TRs newer features, if I recall. We exchange emails from time to time and he told me several months ago heād been banned. Basically a little too much criticism of the product and swiping at some of the staff when they called him on it.
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Yes, unfortunately, we banned WindWarrior in July 2024 due to repeated violations of our Community Guidelines. His behavior consistently crossed lines we set to keep our community respectful and constructive.
The three guidelines he broke were:
1. Be excellent to each other.
2. Challenge the idea, donāt attack the person.
3. Contribute constructively.
We sent him multiple warnings, clearly explaining how his comments were impacting the community and reiterating our expectations. Unfortunately, despite our attempts to address the issue with him directly, he continued to engage in behavior that created a hostile environment.
To clarify, this decision was not because he was critical of TrainerRoadās features. We welcome constructive feedback and challenging ideas; however, we do not condone personal attacks or unconstructive comments. Our priority is to ensure that the forum remains a welcoming place for everyone to share and learn, and WindWarriorās actions ultimately opposed this goal, affecting other membersā experiences.
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Earlier this fall I did a post where I had progressed to 4x25min at sweetspot. Unfortunately after that I had a couple of colds, stress etc ā thatās how it goes when youāre on parental leave with a one-year-old, I guess! ā and I couldnāt progress further, instead going backwards to about 90min TiZ. I made some progress on other areas like a 5min PR of 473W, but the TTE at sweetspot wouldnāt budge. I thought it was probably related to cooling indoors, even with three vacmasters and a dehumidifier my boiler room was just way too hot for extended efforts.
Well, now itās just a few degrees outside here, almost winter already. I started opening up my garage door a bit like last winter to make the boiler room cooler (around 10Ā°C seems optimal for me). This made riding significantly easier!
Hereās the last SS effort without opening the door ā 1x90min, body overheated:
Then last Saturday, coach had planned a 3x35min for me, ended up doing 35+35+42min with about same RPE as that 90min effort. Opening the door really helped!
Today the coach had written 3x45min sweetspot on the plan (sometimes I feel heās a real mad bloke). Well I couldnāt quite do that, but 45+45+30min was doable.
Now with sweetspot TiZ up to 120min, I think weāll move to some vo2s in a couple of weeks to get the FTP up. Nothing fancy with this kind of training, but it seems to work wonders with me. Last winter I did the same TiZ but at nearly 15W less power.
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Kolie Mooreās latest podcast is about sweet spot, I assume everyone on this thread already knows about it/everything covered in it but just in case thatās not the case, check it out!
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Those are some solid sweet spot efforts.
Makes me wonder a what TiZ duration one reaches the point of diminishing returns. Probably where you ended at 2 hours sweetspot for training efforts.
Covered in the podcast! 
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Opinion: 2-2.5 hours is about it for most people. I donāt believe I have coached anyone beyond 2hrs, personally. Havenāt listened to his podcast yet, but I think Kolie has said 2.5 in the past? Might be wrong. Just 2hr SST workouts are huge metabolic loads, so people doing that should have tremendous endurance already and usually those are going to be higher volume guys and have long training histories. My kind of ādefaultā is 80-90 minutes for lower training age athletes.
Generally speaking, I try to create a big metabolic demand in a single session. Iāve never given a dense block of sweet spot to someone like youāre mentioning (3 consecutive workouts, same overall TiZ), but in theory it could probably work well. I would worry about the fatigue cost at the higher end, and at the lower end (say 3 x 60 min workouts) I would think youād just make yourself tired without pushing boundaries.
If youāre time crunched, overall time spent at that power is probably OK, but ideally, I want to see some BIG single sets.
My approach when we get into those bigger sets (say 75min +) is to do 1x SST each week and then a second tempo ride that pushes that TiZ envelop even further out (beyond 2 hours). So weāre knocking power back, but still getting a large metabolic demand below threshold. I have found that to be more manageable for my athletes in terms of fatigue.
At the high end, Iāve had riders do about 4.5 hours in that window of 80-90% of FTP in their biggest weeks. Those guys are usually in that 15+ hour overall volume, and everything else is low- to mid-Z2 in weeks like that.
So to answer the question: more is more, the question about whether more is better probably depends on the person and what they can handle.
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I would take a crack at the fourth interval in that situation. Or do a 30s break and kill the last 5 min, then full rest, then go for the final 20 and break it up again if needed. Taking backpedal breaks (in erg) or just 30s breaks arenāt going to kill the whole workout.
Also, in big sets like that, get away from the 3 min rest intervals and stretch it to 5 or more if you need it.
I donāt track aerobic decoupling at that kind of power. Itās going to climb and you might see threshold HRs late in workouts like that. Hopefully HR trends down as you get fitter, so if you do a 3x20 one month and cap at 165, then next month after some work, Iād hope to see you at lower HR at the same time, but HR is affected by so many things, itās not something I worry too much about. In fact, I generally think watching HR during a workout sometimes does more harm than good (i.e. it freaks you out or makes you question what youāre doing for no ārealā reason).
I always want people to record it, but I usually donāt want them worrying about it during their sessions. (In fact, I have had a couple people Iāve flat out told to take it off their head unit when training. 
)
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Could it also be related to CO2 accumulation with garage door closed? I very rarely see that factor taken into account or discussed.
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Has something happened to the more sweet spot! Team workout library? I just went in there for the first time in a while and no workouts are showing up.
Yeah, too bad he didnāt cover my question regarding periodization.
So, assuming my target event next summer involves ton of extended climbing, when should I focus on SS intervals?
Until now SS was part of winter base (following TRās programs). This year Iām considering doing vo2 throughout the depths of winter and leaving SS for closer to the event.
My only fear is whether doing vo2 while being very far from my top shape is going to yield meaningful results.
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Why?
Why?
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Why not both? If sweet spot is relevant to your event, then it has a place both in your base and in your build up to your event.
Not sure why the concern on when youāre doing VO2max. It doesnāt go away provided you continue training. You want to do it 6-12 weeks before you need to see an FTP increase, and probably further out than that so you can ābed inā the gains in threshold. For example, for a roadie/crit guy if Iām aiming for an April 1 āpeakā, I will do focused VO2 in January, if not a bit earlier. For someone doing longer events with lots of climbing and sustained power requirement, I might do VO2max 5 or 6 months in advance of their event.
If your goal event is ātons of extended climbingā, you want to get your threshold up earlier, then train at that threshold, THEN train at your actual climbing power until youāre ready. The process of raising FTP and then raising TTE at that new FTP (or sub-threshold efforts) takes more time than raising FTP and then getting ready for anaerobic repeats in a crit (for example). In the crit case, your ārace prepā period might be 4 weeks long. In the ultra/climbing case, your race prep period might be more like 2-3 months long. Race prep in this case being what you go into after threshold training (which is after VO2 trainingā¦ your ābuildā).
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Fwiw, itās working for me
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