today’s nonsense
Here is my example from a month ago. And like I said, at that moment, I could even extend it 15-20min.
So. Is a SST progression usefull? Start my progression at a higher power? Re-test FTP?
Yesterday’s nonsense - 24 minutes around 85%
This guy is doing something right!
These net out to the same result, which is what you should do. Either re-test or give yourself a 3-5% bump and start a progression at 90% of FTP.
Hey! Fanastic conversation - I’m learning alot!
I have a question re my plans for 2024 - My focus is gran fondo’s typically lasting 5-7 hours (most climbs <60min) and have been cycling since 2021. I last did a sweet spot progression ahead of the Maratona this year in june ending with a 1x45min, this was alongside 1xVo2, 1xThreshold per week, with as much extra z2 as possible (so standard TR LV plan but SS workouts swapped for progression).
Due to start general base until Feb (2xSS and 1xThreshold), build (1x Vo2, threshold and SS) until March and then Speciality until end of April for Mallorca fondo.
My original plan had been to approach the base phase with 2xSS progressions, 1xVo2 and z2. However having read this thread, would I be better dropping the Vo2 and threshold until build and sticking with 2x SS and as much z2 for volume? Would you add anything ontop of the 2x SS progressions/week?
Cheers!
[quote=“Jordy_T, post:2985, topic:26979, full:true”].
My original plan had been to approach the base phase with 2xSS progressions, 1xVo2 and z2. However having read this thread, would I be better dropping the Vo2 and threshold until build and sticking with 2x SS and as much z2 for volume? Would you add anything ontop of the 2x SS progressions/week?
Cheers!
[/quote]
Personally I like doing an achievable / maintenance VO2 workout every 2 weeks in base phase (30/30s, 1 min reps, etc. it doesn’t need to be a lot and should be easy to recover from). Rest is filled with volume, sweet spot an occasional threshold. But that’s me…
I’ve been doing 2 SS workouts a week for the past 1.5 month, the rest endurance. I find when doing 60-90 mins TIZ of SS I don’t need a 3rd day of intensity. I ride about 9-11 hours a week. I’m slowly building my long endurance rides out further than I have before. So I give myself ample room for recovery and I can really nail those hard days. I’m hoping to be getting 90+ mins TIZ after this block.
I’m 40 years old and have been training “seriously” 4 ish years. Everyone is different, I’ve thought about adding another day of intensity but haven’t found a reason too.
Per week or per workout?
Per workout
I am doing also something like you, but a little different. I don’t focus on 2 SS sessions but I use LT1, tempo and SS in a progressive approachv, the rest filled with normal Z2 (60-65%).
This is my base approach. Weekly hours around 12h and TIZ increase of those 3 ‘zones’ to get higher load per week. No treshold yet.
Here my PL’s. I aim to increase them around 0.5-0.7 per week. After a first base block (3-4 weeks) I also start doing some treshold progression.
Is this a good approach? Or should I not focus on increasing the PL’s with the adaptive training?
Currently around 85CTL so if I only did pure Z2 as base I need 14-15hours to stay on that level. And mostly I have around 12h a week.
Yes and no, the PLs are a good way To compare workouts, and how hard they might be. I do use the PL’s to pick workouts but sometimes I may pick a lower PL because I’m shooting for more time in zone. The PLs are based on intensity and other things so you could have for example, 3 x 20 at 88% versus a higher PL would be 3 x 20 at 92%.
Last weekend I did a PL 8 SS Workout 3 x 25 at 90%, it was hard (plus it’s the busiest time of year for me) so on Tuesday I actually picked a lower PL 6, but with longer sustained Intervals.
I have two main goals that’s in increase time in zone and try to do longer intervals.
Yes.
No.
I would still have you do a SST progression, but then your build would be VO2 + Threshold/SST/Over-Unders rather than a block style because you’re on lower volume. 2x intensity per week, not 3 IMO. Your key rides should be the two intense sessions, then a 3+ hour ride on the weekend. Anything else during the week moderate zone 2 like 65-70%.
This is common, and I’ll say when I get people like us (mid-40s masters+) up near that 90 minute range of TiZ for one workout, their second intensity session usually becomes tempo at a high time in zone. It’s not uncommon for me to have guys do a 75-90min SST session and then a 2hr tempo (TiZ) session on the weekend.
The only other thing I add is neuromuscular work once a week. This can be as simple as sprints or spinups inside an endurance ride, or something more organized like cadence ramps or big gear accelerations/short tempo intervals.
Bottom line for those reading through this thread: if you’re out of “noob gain” territory, IMO block style is the way to go assuming your volume is around 10 hours or more. If you’re in your first year or so of training, mixed protocols work well, but they’re going to flatten out pretty quickly because the stimulus just isn’t that great, and to make it bigger, you end up burning yourself out because you’re just going HARDER all the time 2-3 times per week (sound familiar?).
Once you’re at that initial plateau, that’s where block style becomes effective IMO, and you end up achieving a larger stimulus by really focusing on one aspect of your riding at a time: endurance, VO2max, threshold, repeatability, etc. Sweet Spot/Tempo progressions are essentially endurance work.
The people I tend to do mixed periodization for are newer athletes, athletes on lower volume (e.g. sub 10hrs), and super masters (like 60+ depending on their background).
Sorry for the double tap.
I appreciate the advice!
Would you start from Threshold aiming for a plateau (if I can say this) and then a block of Vo2 based on that FTP to then repeat it with maybe a new FTP based on a block of VO2, or the opposite (start with vo2 to then go to Threshold)?
I think I’ve said this elsewhere, my “general approach” is:
Base/Endurance (this includes SST/Tempo) → VO2max** → Threshold → Race prep
That approach varies by athlete, however, just a typical high-level periodization.
** I don’t go here unless I need to, but many athletes hit a performance ceiling limited by VO2max.
Obviously the duration of each of these blocks is highly individual, but can you give some rule-of-thumb / guidelines of when to move on or average durations for each block?
Including recovery periods:
Base/Endurance SST/Tempo: ~6-12 weeks or even more.
VO2max: 3-4 weeks
Threshold: 4-8 weeks
Race prep: 2-6weeks (maybe more for ultra people)
The first three are pretty general for most people, though I do structure them quite a bit differently for people based on a number of factors. Race prep can be a lot of different things, including threshold, MAP, short-shorts or even tempo/LT1 riding for ultra people.
When to move on? That’s a big fat “it depends”. Sometimes periodization and race schedules drive it, other times fitness markers drive it. In an ideal world, fitness markers always drive things, but the reality is it just rarely works that way IME.
Does the SST progression intensity matters a lot? Is there a difference between 88 vs 90 or even more?
Why? I started the Steve Neal tempo approach (HR cap 80-83% max). But…TR AI FTP gives 266W, WKO5 mFTP says 258W. When doing tempo at 80% max HR this is around 88% FTP (266) and 90% FTP (258W).
So this tempo sessions are more or less SST sessions. But maybe the ‘term’ is not that important. Just do the work ;-). Is it important to know which FTP is correct? So do I have the schedule an FTP test (need some rest before I am afraid). Or do I just continue the tempo work and don’t focus too much on what power values to chase. Also, can I see this as a SST progression or should I take higher values for that (94%).