How do you end up with an estimated FTP higher than your tested power? Is this a WKO thing?
That is the model that should have enough good data. But a 1/4/12min effort and a 40min workout should normally be ok I think. Certainly because the.40min was not a real test because no fresh legs and not all-out from the startā¦
Kolie Moore has said work threshold until you can do about an hour at FTP. Not saying 40 mins is your TTE, but thatās about the minimum to derive a reasonably accurate FTP number from everything Iāve read.
Also agree with previous post that it seems weird that mFTP is higher than your 40 min power.
Iād suggest to see if you can push 275w (or more based on feel) for longer, especially if you werenāt very fresh.
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This is red flag that your model needs some work.
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Or simply that modeled power curve is a best fit across all durations, and can be influenced by outliers at both short and long ends of your actual data.
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Yep. That is why I asked this question to my friends here at the forum ;-). It was also a concern for meā¦Soā¦rest of the week some solid Z2 work with some normalized residuals testingā¦
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I picked an āeasy to seeā example from five years ago.
IMHO, visual inspection shows the knee of my actual power curve (yellow) is at 267W and TTE of 1:17:12
So if I was simply doing actual power curve (yellow) analysis, Iād set FTP at 267W and TTE of 1:17:12.
WKO on the other hand uses the modeled curve (red), and gives mFTP of 277W and TTE 0:59:58.
Thatās the difference between using a modeled curve and actual curve.
Comparing durations of interest:
My actual duration at mFTP is between 38:59 and 40:00. So a lot less than TTE.
Here are the residuals:
Nothing of interest except past 2.5 hours.
And test targets:
So in parallel to what Iām showing, your actual at 40 minutes was 273, while mFTP is higher at 277 and TTE of 42:53. Which implies that if you map mFTP on your actual curve, your mFTP power occurs before the 40-min effort you did. Just like Iām showing above.
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in other words, the difference between modeled power curve and your actual curve. Donāt immediately red flag it, it may simply be a modeling artifact. Notice how WKO didnāt ask me to go out and do a 2.5 hour max effort.
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Lucky you ;-).
Just kidding. Really great post. Thx. I Will check my curve. I Will post later hereā¦
But thing is that I mostly did indoor sessions the previous months. The ones outside was just Z2. And I use different FTP values because indoor it is 20-15w less. But my PDC outdoor is in progress. Altough I have a 1m, 4m and 12m efforts also. But normalized residuals give some efforts to test in the shorter durations.
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Well, seems like there might be some curve work to do as others pointed out, and in any event, I think extensive work is still a good place for you to be right now.
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Here my Normalized Residuals. Seems a 30s sprint is on the planning ;-). And I think also a 1.45-2.00 effort maybeā¦
Think I may have overdone it a bit with my progression but wanted to get your thoughts. Iām in my third week and hitting a wall with fatigue. Tried to get on yesterday and 90% felt like VO2; legs are so tired. Everything is at 90% FTP.
6-week TSS when I started was 352. Coming off a rest week.
Week 1: 3x12, 3x15, 1x40, 3x18 - TIZ 175min, 386 TSS (with added Z2), 6 hours on bike.
Week 2: 3x20, 2x30, 1x60 - TIZ 180min, 415 TSS, 6:34 on bike.
Week 3: Monday 4x20, then hit a wall trying to do a 4x20 on Wednesday, with a 3x30 planned this weekend. Would be around 485TSS and 7:30 on the bike if I completed it, but bailed on the second 4x20.
Did I ramp too fast? Iāve been eating like itās my job and trying to get 8-9 hours of sleep a night. I have a demanding job but it hasnāt changed at all recently, meaning Iām still working my same hours (maybe even less) that I have for the last 6 months. Iāve given myself a day between workouts except the first week where I did back to back days once. My plan was to do a 3 week block extending time at 90%, take a rest week, then go into a threshold block extending time/above threshold. Then hit VO2 after that. A race isnāt until early August but have some B and C races starting in May. Should I push through and do the 3x30 this weekend, then take my rest week or stop now and give myself rest?
4x20 and 3x30 are Big workouts for a lot of people. Two per week at that level. Maybe you could add a little tempo midweek, but generally two 4x20s and a 3x30 is too much for a your āaverage joeā riders.
Your progression up to that point was OKā¦ you want to be pretty aggressive with itā¦. Itās just that 4 workouts per week isnāt great at any level, and then 3 at 4x20-3x30 is probably too much.
You went from 36 to 60 in two weeks then tried to go 60 to 80 twice in three days.
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I was trying to just ramp up the total TIZ for the week. Which looking at it again was a huge jump this week (175, 180, 270). I probably should have shot for maybe 2 workouts (4x20, 3x30) spaced at the ends and maybe a shorter midweek 1x30 or something to keep the TIZ for the week up. So I guess my question is: is the goal to just increase the interval length or total TIZ per week or session? Or both? In other words, should I set my goal to finish the 4x20 and 3x30, knowing that my total TIZ is lower (for the week), but thatās fine because my workout TIZ has increased.
Iām not sure I understand this. Are you saying 4 workouts isnāt enough or too much?
Sorry, was typing on my phone earlierā¦
4 sweet spot workouts in a week is too much. Now, your TiZ in each of those workouts was likely not much of an issue for you, so you got away with it that first week.
As you noted, the biggest issue is you increased your volume of sweet spot by 33% in one workout, then tried to follow it with the same thing a day later, and late in a block. Thatās overly aggressive.
The progression was a bit odd that you spent three workouts at 60min TiZ. The progression before that was pretty good, but then you stagnated it, then you tried to make a huge jump. 3x20 ā 3x24or25 ā 4x20 ā 3x30. Do that over the course of those last two weeks and you probably wouldāve been golden and gone from 3x12 to 3x30 in three weeks, likely without issue if your other rides supported it (Z2, maybe some tempo if you can handle it.) (This year I progressed 3x20 ā 3x25 ā 3x30ā¦ you want to be aggressive with progression in sweet spot, especially if youāve done it beforeā¦ you arenāt nearly this aggressive with threshold/anything higher.)
Your overall goal is to increase time in zone, first and foremost. Interval length would be a secondary progressionā¦ physiologically thereās not much difference between 3x20 on 3 min rest and 1x60. Psychologically thereās a big difference. The question is, do you need to be able to drill 60 or 90 straight minutes at 90%? Thereās not many applications to that outside a solo breakaway, but it is ānice to knowā.
Biggest issue was doing four workouts and setting week 1 at 175 min TiZ and trying to progress from there. Ditch the 3x12, start at 3x15, lower week 1 TiZ, and do two sweet spot workouts per week with a third zone 3/tempo ride in there. Thatās much more sustainable when you get up into the 75 and 90 minute SST workouts.
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Ok that makes sense.
I think the big reason for that second week staying at 60min was your point here. For me, I wanted to get to that 1x60. Mostly from a psychological point. I had never done a 60min SS interval so it was a target I wanted to hit. So I think I built it up in my head and had to build up the interval length to complete it. Now looking back, it probably wasnāt the best choice as it made the jumps in the 3rd week bigger. And I think blocks like this in the future Iāll focus on TIZ like you said.
Thanks for the input.
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Agree with the points above - these looong SST workouts catch up with you suddenly and I found they just floored me just after I had my 1x100 session!
I think the other way to look at this is WHY would you want to schedule more than 2 long sessions like this a week really? The work you are doing during those sessions is very significant so what do we really expect to happen by trying to do a 3rd? Is it really going to add anything beneficial to your development if you can already do a 4x20 etc twice a week anyway? I love the @brendanhousler quote about "a little being good for us so doing even more must be better rightā¦wrong!"
The goal has to be consistency longer term, so far far better to dial it down one notch and maintain it over time than max out and burn out. Sadly I had to learn that one the hard way. Felt great after my SST progression and then spent 3 months praying I never had to get on the turbo againā¦
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Another updateā¦die my short efforts from my PDC last Thursday. mFTP still the same. FRC went up to 14.8 and %vo2max got lower now (82.7). So ok. All seems ok now.
About progressionā¦Finisher my 3rd higher volume week and really feels good. Tomorrow 1hr recovery and finish the week in 16hr. Today did a Z2 ride for 2.45 and then completed a 75min SST interval at 90%ā¦
With controlled TSB and good sleep it seems that the higher volume weeks are doable for me as a 45y old dude. Also fueling during every rides is key. Even thƩ easier ones. 4z2 workouts and one FTP and one SST a week. One week tot gonand then a recovery week.
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Finished my 3rd week today. Managed to do 4x20 Monday and 4x20 again today. Was going to try to extend today out a bit but was pretty cooked so I called it at 80min TiZ. Learned some things from this thread that will help me next time I do an extensive block again. Got a rest week then some threshold work to come.
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What kind of approach is typically taken for the threshold block?
Is there a thread here I can reference?
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