My A race is a ~100mi MTB race (course record <8:30h, my far from ideal attempt last year >11h, target is <10h this year). While there are no super long climbs (max is probably around 30 mins, most of them <10min), I doubt I’ll do anything more than SST given the overall duration. 120 is an arbitrary goal, mostly dictated by how long I think I enjoy doing workouts on the trainer. Would you recommend capping at 90min for now and focusing on pushing up FTP, and potentially working on more TiZ closer to the race?
Did you have a target FTP after which you just stayed there and achieved progressive overload through over/unders and pushing out durations for anything between 90-100%? Trying to understand when to retest once I hit 90min vs hard starts, bursts etc.
I have WKO5, but still finding my bearings there (and haven’t done any efforts above FTP in months) - I’m still below my FTP from last year, so should be able to push up with a FTP block, followed by a SST and then VO2max block.
Thanks for that guidance - what types of races are you targeting?
First question: I think two hours is appropriate for you. Seems like you have lofty goal in that and having a good tank of muscular endurance is certainly a necessity for that kind of effort. 2 hours isn’t overkill for you like it is for most Cat 3 crit racers. I had aimed for 2 hours for myself this year… my long term goal is Kona qualification even though I’m mostly doing 60-90 min road races right now. That got derailed when I got COVID last month, so I’m settling for 90min for now, maybe build it to 2hrs later in the season… we’ll see. Anyway, that’s my thought process.
No target FTP. I just tried to push my FTP up under my VO2max cap, and then I pushed VO2max like @RONDAL described. From experience, I can get up around 280-290 before I need to push VO2max work. So once I get there, I’ll start thinking about my VO2max block.
If you’re testing your residuals for your WKO5 PDC model like they recommend, you shouldn’t really have to “formally” test to detect a rise in FTP. One of the clear advantages of this kind of self-coaching methodology is that you do max efforts from time to time, whereas in TR you just… don’t. No matter how much machine learning and AI stuff they throw at their client base, they’re never going to be as accurate because their plans and workouts never call for max efforts beyond a ramp test.
Enter the periodic short, medium, and long duration “tests” that are key to maintaining your PDC throughout the year. I “test” my residuals one per week, with the short and medium duration “tests” being part of a longer workout (often part of a zone 2 ride with one or two efforts at the prescribed time frame), and then the “long test” IS the workout: e.g. 40min “all-out” then add an hour in zone 2, and that’s that day’s workout.
Do that, your model updates, FTP moves while you train, no real need to do a formal FTP test all that often.
Sounds good, thank you.
I hope you can get back up to speed and don’t have any long term effects from this - Kona is a great goal!
I like that approach - haven’t formally tested in a while because they just added stress, but with these continuous mini tests I think it would just be normalized. I’m still going through the videos on planning the different phases and WKO5 in general, but will try to replicate something similar once I’m there. Thanks again
have you looked at the mftp/vo2 chart i referenced over a multi-year time period?
You mentioned that as you approach 280-290w you feel you need to switch. When you look at these points in time and the % of mftp of vo2 is it in a similar spot? Or is it all over the place for you?
Seems like I generally hang out between 81 and 83%. Never get much above or below that, so when I push the VO2max workouts the ceiling goes up (last year the model was 59 up to 65) and FTP tracks up accordingly confirmed by residual testing.
This is my second full season on WKO5, and I was progressing ahead of last season before COVID derailed me… right now I’m just trying to make sure my base legs are good before I hit VO2max work again.
If there’s a hole in my training from the last 15 months, it’s being able to really push my FTP up via aerobic build. I never got that kind of block dialed last year… part of it because racing really started about the time I wanted to get into it. This year I should get a solid block in before I start sharpening the blade. COVID has thrown the timing of the last two seasons for a bit of a loop!
Training density is an interesting thing to mess with, and provided you allow recovery from it, it can spur some adaptations. I just wrapped up a four-day block:
3x25 @90%
75min @80-85% with 15s bursts to 5min power every 3 to 6min
40min low Z2
3x30 @90%
That 3x30 was absolutely brutal for the final interval. I wanted to attack a block like this aggressively to hopefully get back on track with my base phase. So, now I need to make sure I recover from it before moving forward.
This season I have focused on extending time at sweet spot and doing long hard endurance rides at the aerobic threshold. It seems to work well and I have done every workout with recovered legs. Two weeks ago I did a three hour long Zwift ride at sweet spot, in some parts it was under sweet spot (like descending from Epic KOM segment) but as power average for the whole 180 minutes I was at about 86 % of my FTP. Last week I did also 75 minutes at 97 % of FTP. In October it was tough to do 2x20 min at sweet spot with lower FTP. It is tougher to do 180 minutes at sweet spot now, but somehow I manage to suffer so long. Maybe I can do 240 minutes before the summer comes, but now it feels like I don’t have to concentrate on it anymore. Regular SS training has been two times some of the following sessions: 1x60-90 min, 2x45-60 min or 3x25-40 min.
I use my 40-60 min max power to define my FTP as I can ride that quite nice on threshold heart rate. I try to test it once in a month. From a 20 minutes test it would be way too high because I can push the last 4-5 minutes at VO2max power. I think my genetics suit well with long SS efforts as I have very muscular legs which can store a lot of glycogen.
I think I will still do a couple of three week sweet spot blocks and then I will get a short threshold block to get my legs ready for gravel racing in the summer. The first race will be in the end of April. I have done some assimilation rides already and studied how to get everything together with nutrition. As we have snow here the possibilities to do long race-like assimilation rides are limited, but I am sure I will do a lot of them in May and June.
Why would you need to keep pushing it out? Going longer at SST at some point is a diminishing return for many riders. Remember, it’s about the minimum effective stimulus that suits what you need. There aren’t many amateur riders that need to be able to put out 4 hours at SST… and if you’re doing 4hrs at what you think is 90%, there’s a decent chance you’ve underestimated your FTP by quite a bit.
JMO, but I can see how reading through this thread people might think “I should push longer!!” More is not necessarily better. If you’re already doing roughly 3 hours at SST, I’m not sure two additional three week blocks of more sweet spot is really necessary.
It’s all about what people need. Friel was probably right. That said, a gravel racer and ultra-endurance MTB riding and even ultra-distance triathletes can probably benefit from extending time in sweet spot out to 2 hours… Grand Tour riders probably even more than that with consideration for fatigue resistance day-after-day.
One problem with a lot of training discussions is that people see “XXXX is doing this, so should I.” But they don’t apply the context to WHY XXXX is doing that. Example is the LT1 endurance discussion going on elsewhere as well… San Milan programs that for his top notch world athletes, so others are thinking all their Z2 time should be at LT1, and that’s not true. As I said, a Cat 4 or Cat 3 crit racer doesn’t need to spend 2 hours in sweet spot. A Cat 1 road racer probably does. Context matters… that’s why the first question I asked was “Why?”
Like any good coach, if someone would ask me, “Should I push my sweet spot progression out to 2 hours or 3 hours?”, my answer would be, “It depends…”
Good point. I am training for long gravel races (8 h plus) so as in general more is more. As I wrote, I feel like I don’t have to concentrate on time at sweet spot anymore because it is quite good for me now. But as it’s quite long time before I race I wouldn’t like to begin more intense training yet as the risk to get overtrained or too early in form would be increased.
I do these 40-70 min efforts regularly to find out where I am and these power number are in line with intervals.icu FTP estimation. Right now my estimated FTP is ca. 375 W from a 20 min effort I did and the graph gives me similar FTP estimation from a 7 min full gas effort. I use this number for setting my power zones and the intervals are in general spot on to do, I don’t blow up but the last minutes are always quite hard when I’m executing them in the middle of the SS power zone.
I for sure feel when I have wrong power zones and have gone the hard way when doing them too hard. Previously my training has been more like polarized VO2max-focused training with quite a lot of training hours in context of my daily schedules. Back then I felt like I didn’t go anywhere with my endurance and most of time I was under recovered because the intervals were so hard. Now I do more sweet spot focused training and in general more TSS. I’m able to do more training hours too and I recover well.
I feel like that I can now perform at FTP or very near it even though I have lot of fatigue in my legs. I can also ride now very long at the aerobic threshold. But the VO2max power hasn’t got anywhere either, now I’m able to do it when I’m tired or when I’ve already near the limit. So it works for me.
For me all this sweet spot training is also mental training, because the races are long and hard I must be able to overcome negative thoughts, withstand fatigue and have energy to push at the limit when I’m tired. Maybe with more intense intervals I would be at faster (like in time trials or road racing), but at the long gravel race I would finish slower. To be precise I don’t do SS training more often than two times a week, maybe three times at the last week of the block to get me so tired that I won’t think about training for a couple of days. Other training is just high Z2 riding or gym training.
What’s most important, I like doing this training and I’m always motivated doing it. Maybe consistency is the reason why I’ve gone so well forward with it. Because the sweet spot training isn’t so intense, I don’t need to have the best legs or the freshest brain for it. I can execute good power after hard day at work from day to day and it gets me forward with good recovery. It is also quite easy to do with the climbs on Zwift. As I am not doing this for work and I like it, I think it is the best training for me.
If you’re still progressing by doing it, hammer away. It may not be the optimal thing for you, but if that’s not a concern then who cares? Have fun!
My comment was also meant to the group at large where we’ve got people who are constantly pushing out-out-out, and that may not be the best thing for them, nor remotely necessary given their disciplines. People shouldn’t read these 2400 posts and come away thinking, “Unless I can get to 2 hours (or 3 hours) of SST, I suck!” Context matters.
85 % of FTP for three hours as the definition for low sweet spot at intervals.icu. Sorry that I wasn’t precise. Two hours at 90 % would be max for one SS effort I think. But that was with my previous FTP - tested it today with K. Moores protocol and got 9 W bump! So my time at sweetspot is shorter again. Also TTE for FTP was shorter than I thought. After all its going to right direction
I am big guy too, around 87-88 kg now and legs like tree trunks. So that explains a bit of the watts. I became a father second time in autumn so I’ve got some dad watts too but I have terrible racing instinct so I’m not going to win anything with my legs yet, have to do a lot of mental training still.
I did the old SS build 1 & 2 high volume plan back in 2020 with pretty good compliance (I think I swapped the sunday SS for Z2). It was an epic beat down, but I felt like I could pedal hard all day after my first block of build. In 2 separate races, I have normalized power of 88% for over 3 hours and one was a gravel race that I won by riding away solo with 60 miles remaining (pretty much my ultimate dream come true as a bike racer). Sweet spot endurance is not the kind of tool that’s going to help you in a crit, but gravel racing (in particular) I find rewards sweet spot power endurance. I’ve done well in gravel by outlasting people.
I’m not sure I will ever do that kind of sweet spot volume again, it was physically tough and even tougher mentally. I also felt like I might have peaked after build 1 and had too much residual fatigue going into build 2.
The problem with sweet spot (for me) is that I feel like the numbers should always be doable, but it just compounds mentally and physically on consecutive days. I always felt like a hero on Tuesday, Wed was a little tough, but Thursday was always on the hairy edge of excess fatigue. I was 50 at the time, so maybe my masters status plays into that. My current base approach is SS on Tues/Thurs and high Z2/low Z3 as much volume as I can handle on the other days (always a long ride on Sat.).
going to nit pick on this because i think there is a huge misconception about training and how it equates to racing.
cycling is an aerobic sport. period.
Even if you’re racing crits, its still aerobic. Yes there are periods of intensity, but if you understand how the anaerobic/aerobic pieces work you know that anything greater than 2min is basically aerobic, so a crit lasting 45-75min is very much aerobic.
If you can use SST to grow your aerobic engine it is absolutely going to help you in crits. Couple it with the fact if you are growing your aerobic engine you are likely pushing up your FTP, all else equal, EVERYTHING is easier.
Your aerobic engine also takes a lot longer to grow and cultivate vs. anaerobic. So when you do make the switch to working on your anaerobic pieces closer to race time, you are building on a much larger foundation and the gains are more pronounced.
Also as it related to race tactics, if you are racing crits and plan to go in a breakaway it can very much be a SST effort. If you are sitting in the pack, depending on your positioning and bike handling, it will be a lot more stochastic with lots of surges.
I pretty much agree with all of that, just pointing out that the specific ability to put out sweet spot power for long periods isn’t a card that helps as often in a crit compared to gravel. Poor wording on my part.
That said, I do think there is a difference between building a big aerobic engine and building sweet spot endurance. They are obviously highly inter-related, but I think it could be possible to have a big aerobic engine and still struggle with long sweet spot. For me personally, I can get to a point where I can ride high Z2 and low Z3 for 6+ hours when focusing on those power zones, but not be able to go out and ride at SS for 3 hours. Maybe that’s still an under-developed aerobic engine, but I suspect there are some neuromuscular factors going on also. I honestly don’t know, but that’s what I suspect.
I think a key point is also that even if the surges are anaerobic, the recovery from them is aerobic. If you aerobic engine isn’t big enough, you can’t recover quick enough.
I think the only cycling discipline that doesn’t benefit that much from aerobic training is track sprint. That is usually a single effort, not really lonv enough to make it aerobic, and lots of recovery before the next round.
