100% yes IME. Happens to me on every long interval workout I do. I’ve found that shorter recoveries help mitigate that some, so I generally stick with 3 minutes. That said, if that’s not enough of a mental/physical break, take longer and remind yourself to expect that sensation and then HTFU and work through it. Pays dividends.
Yep, many times in prior progressions if I was feeling fine I would just skip the rest interval. Knock out the workout a little bit quicker and you don’t have to deal with that fatigue sensation.
Just coming here to day-dream. Been on the bike for no more than 10 times for no longer than 30 minutes a time since early December. Knee injuries suck. Coming back to extensive work is going to be REALLY humbling.
Same here, although I’ve never done 90% for a 3 hour block. Doing that (especially outside) is quite the achievement! I’d be too broken to contend with traffic by the end of that.
Well I got the 1x90 done. Well happy with myself. I didn’t think it was going to happen with the crash and not feeling great all week but woke up this morning determined to try and close out the SST progression.
That brings to an end 6 weeks of SST work. I feel far more resilient on the bike, able to recover quicker than I thought was possible and think that it was a really benefical block for improving my fatgue resistance overall. I also really enjoyed the nature of the extensive aerobic work and the steady state efforts.
Thanks to all those in the thread for the awesome inputs which helped me on my way. Now for a rest week, some testing (hope TTE has improved even if FTP has not) and decide what to do next for next block.
I took regular “Deception -2” and added another interval and then tossed 45min of z2 work onto the end.
HR didn’t crack 150 even after the 400+w sprint for 60s to start every session.
It’s funny when you read the workout goals/description: Goals
When working close to FTP, the goal is almost always to improve muscular endurance.
This level of effort allows you to bring about much of the performance-enhancing adaptations that come as a result of riding at your FTP but with a bit less stress on your muscles and mind.
Build your fitness to a point where you can remain this close to your FTP for durations this long and it’s probably time to reassess your FTP or push up your aerobic ceiling with some concentrated VO2max work.
Going to try and tackle 120mins of SST next weekend, which is actually giving me anxiety right now, and then have a rest week and kiss this SST block good-bye.
Also for those still following some of the WKO5 webinars there is one from last year with Kolie that never happened that is finally going ahead tomorrow, all about VLamax, etc. I’m sure a recording will eventually get posted to youtube if you cant join live.
I’m on my 3rd block of base training and doing some sweet spot progression after a tempo block.
I’m doing 2 sweet spot workouts per week next ones are 2x40min and 2x45min.
Wondering if it’s ok to do them on consecutive days like tuesday and wednesday?
Or is it better to space them out, does the adaptation differ in any way.
I ride 6 days per week, one long ride and 2 gym sessions.
I don’t see the harm in doing them back to back if you can manage it. I would assume this might help further with increasing fatigue resistance as the second SST workout will be done on “tired” legs. Give it a try. What % are you doing the intervals at? You could lower the % for the second SST workout. I have seen that approach used by others in the thread when doing back to back work.
Thanks for the reply. I’m doing them at 90%, or close to, I’m not 100% sure of my ftp during base.
I managed them fine last week but final weeks 2x60min might be tough.
Intuitively we might think not due to fatigue, but last winter when I did this progression I actually had some really good results on the 2nd back to back day after having a nightmare the first day and failing after 50-75% of the way through due to fatugue. Came back the next day and smashed it!
It’s not going to change the physical adaptation provided you recover appropriately afterward. It will condition you to better deal with fatigue, mostly mentally in that regard.
In the past, I’ve not had problems with 2x intense days during base, but when I try to throw in a third SST or tempo session, I tend to fall apart. YMMV, you know yourself better…
My question is if you’re riding 6 days a week, why do you need to do the two sweet spot days back to back? I’m also assuming these are probably your hardest workouts of the week since you’re in base. If they’re not, and you’re doing a third or fourth (!) interval session, then that changes things.
I’m only doing 2 intense days, riding about 14-18hrs per week so I think it’s enough.
2 days in a row is just easiest to schedule. I find if I do the sweet spot workouts before gym even with 5 hours between takes away from my squats. Also doing sweet spot day after gym makes the rpe go through the rough. 2nd day after gym even with doms is ok.
Last other option is to do sweet spot day after a long ride (4-5hrs), I find the rpe higher then too. Surprisingly 2 days of sweet spot in a row hasn’t been so bad.
Was not criticizing your volume. I was wondering why with 6 days and 14-18 hours of riding you think it’s necessary to do the rides on back-to-back days? With that schedule, I would generally spread the rides out unless I was intentionally messing with training density for some reason (which I do sometimes).
But as mentioned, you won’t alter the adaptation. You could build more fatigue resistance this way, but on the flip side the quality of the second workout could be impaired. If you consider these your key sessions, I would separate them most of the time. I guess there’s only one way to find out.
FWIW, when I schedule back-to-back workouts like this, I will generally do SST first then a tempo ride next. In base, that qualifies as “intensity”… in late base, I am pushing power higher, so the SST workout is key. If I have to dial back the tempo ride or do fewer bursts or whatever, that’s a secondary consideration.
Yesterdays was 2x40min SST and today I switched up 2x45min to 1x60min + 30min. Mentally it was a lot easier. Went surprisingly well, heart rate was actually lower on the 2nd day, rpe about the same.
I guess one reason for the schedule is that it’s just nice to get them done early in the week. It’s just Z2 rest of the week and 2 gym sessions.
I think next week I might need to space them out as the TIZ increases, probably combine SST ride and gym right before rest day.
How do you decide whether to progress TiZ or FPT (or % thereof) vs increasing difficulty by doing hard starts, bursts etc.?
My A race is still a solid 7 months out, so my instinct is to keep it as simple as possible and just progress TiZ and FTP, retest, repeat.
If you are using WKO5 keep an eye on your mFTP as a % of VO2 chart. While this is not perfect, a good marker is that once you get into the 82-85% range its time to move from FTP growth to focus on VO2max for a short while to “raise the ceiling”.
Example;
When i started my current block i was around 80%, i’m now sitting around 86%. I’m going to move shortly to a dedicated Vo2 block to hammer that up and then go back to working the SST/FTP related work.
I wont start hitting the FRC/anaerobic power until about 40 days out from racing which isn’t for another 3 months
If you’re following the guidance from Tim Kusick’s webinars, then the general method is to progress TTE for 4-8weeks, then push power up by changing %FTP for another cycle of about 4 weeks.
E.g. my 2021 progression, I aimed to get to 90 minutes TiZ. Once there, I started raising power at somewhat shorter durations and progressing back out, this time including over/under intervals as well (kind of an “aerobic build”.)
You should have a decent idea of how long you want to push your progression before starting. Most people probably don’t need to get out to two hours in sweet spot if they’re racing criteriums, for example. A decent rule of thumb stolen from FasCat coaching is to do SST for as long as you expect your primary events to be. If you’re aiming for 90-minute road races, then move your progression out to 90 minutes.
Once you get to 90minutes, start working on increasing power.
we are saying the same thing.
You provided the “rough timing” guidance, but in those same webinars Tim discusses the metrics you should be tracking to know when to move on, which is what i provided (mftp % of VO2).
