By the middle of the 2nd or 3rd intervals, on the trainer in a garage, I’ll be around LTHR and exit the interval around 2-3bpm higher. Outside similar although lately on threshold intervals it seems to be a few bpm lower.
1 Like
I like that I asked this question on a separate thread but both answers have come from people on the SS Progression thread 
This is it. Imagine yourself on a group ride in a foreign country. You’re 40 miles from your hotel, and riding with a group of much stronger riders. Your only option is to hang on.
That’s where you need to be. LOL.
Unpopular opinion (but not at all a criticism of the OP). Your genuine threshold is the power that you can sustain for at least 45 minutes. If 3x15 is a problem - as in, you can’t complete it, or if it’s a monstrous effort to do so - then unless fuelling/hydration/cooling is way off, then your FTP is set too high; it’s that simple.
I cannot tell you how much less stressful my workouts have been since I used a TTE as an FTP test. Find a flat ish Zwift route that will take 7-9 minutes a lap, and do 6-8 laps (work out how many after lap 1, and that’s your race length - just like Cx). Average power over that effort = FTP. It’s a bit of a blow to the ego (I went from 286 on the ramp to 268 using this method) but the training since has been MUCH more productive.
7 Likes
Mount Goode is a 5.3 threshold effort. So if this is hard or undoable for you, we’d give you workouts earlier in the progression to buidl to this.
IE this one at 3.2
Then this one at 4.2
And then maybe this one at 4.7
And then after those, Mount Goode shouldn’t feel so hard. Or course, this is with proper recovery between hard sessions.
And then you might be able to bang out this 6.8.
And then really hammer it home at 7.2
8 Likes
90% Max (for me at 46years 178bpm) 75% ave (146bpm). Coincidently I done on my 46birthday at the end of Dec.
Thanks for the replies everyone, although some seem to have replied to the OP’s 2-year-old post…
To circle back around to the reason I revived this post and to assist anyone who might have the same question re HR in future…
I did 3x15 this evening. My FTP is 330 from ramp test in late Jan halfway through SSBHV2, so prob 330-335 now.
328w / 168bpm (84% Max)
329w / 173bpm (87% Max)
331w / 177bpm (89% Max)
For reference LTHR is 181-185bpm
2 Likes
This is not an unpopular opinion, it is the truth, You should not dread a threshold workout, You should not need all sorts of motivations and tricks to get through a threshold session. If OP is still reading, for the love of g**, Lower your ftp.
8 Likes
Yep, agreed. Threshold work should be uncomfortable but not some heroic race-like effort. I could’ve done more work yesterday if I had to.
1 Like
So this is the one quibble I have with the Adaptive Training model. Overall it’s clearly a good thing that you’re given intervals that are achievable for you at each level. And, for example at vo2 max and anaerobic, it makes a lot of sense - whatever is hard but do-able is going to be the most effective.
However at threshold, I would always prefer to do more work and longer intervals at lower power than less work and shorter intervals at higher power. E.g. do 3x12min but all at 95-98%, rather than 4x7 at 100%.
I get why the ramp test is chosen as the preferred fitness assessment, but I don’t think it’s particularly controversial to say that the ramp test often gives people an FTP that is higher than their MLSS, which makes threshold and over-unders difficult. And I just think it would be more beneficial to an athlete to do Mount Goode at maybe 98% intensity than give them what might in reality be a shorter but suprathreshold workout.
4 Likes
Lower your ftp by a percent or two, then use adaptative training. Shouldn’t that work?
1 Like
Yes, but then you’re the one doing the adapting, not Trainer Road…
1 Like
You are the one who prefers to do threshold work at a lower percent of ftp.
No. I prefer to do threshold work at my MLSS. As in, do threshold work at threshold. The “FTP” you’re talking about is an arbitrary percentage of your ramp test result, which I think Trainer Road have acknowledged gives variable results for athletes with different power curves. Hence the introduction of adaptive training.
I’m just saying that it would be better if the adaptive training, for those who struggle to do 3x15+min at their ramp test FTP, adjusted threshold workouts more by intensity rather than time in zone or interval length. Because I believe it’s more valuable to do 3x15 at your actual threshold than 4x7 a little above it.
Most users will not be aware of the differences between MLSS and ramp test FTP etc, and will just go with what the ramp test and adaptive training offers. And I believe the system could be denying those users the opportunity to do some really productive but achievable threshold sessions.
6 Likes
Not really. The ramp test is one of many different ways of assessing your FTP. It works on an assumption of a fixed ratio between the last step you can hold, and your actual FTP; individuals may differ from that assumption, so the test may under- or over-estimate your FTP. There are other ways of assessing FTP - 8-min test, 20-min test, and doing threshold workouts. Indeed, letting AT adjust your FTP setting in this manner is one of the (still-to-be-released) features of AT; I understand it does not do that yet, so it makes sense for the user to do it in the meantime.
1 Like
Spot on. Some are doing SS work at their threshold. No wonder there is so much ‘Trainerroad broke me’ content online
Nobody forces you to use the ramp test to determine your ftp. You did.
[edited because my original post was in retrospect a bit too argumentative and personal in tone - not changed any of the points made]
Yes, I could use whatever method I like to determine my FTP. Yes, I could use the ramp test but then knock a few watts off the result. This is, in fact, what I already do.
But, and this is the important point, this isn’t about me. I’m talking about the vast majority of TR users who will accept the ramp test as the default protocol, and accept the result as their FTP. The whole point of Adaptive Training, and perhaps the whole point of Trainer Road in general, is that it reduces the numbers of decisions and adjustments that you need to make. And for that large cohort of users who will just do the ramp test and accept the number, I believe that doing threshold workouts at a slightly lower intensity would be a better way of doing adaptive training than the system that Nate laid out.
If you or anyone else disagrees with that, that’s fine of course. But I don’t need telling that I can do different FTP tests, I very much know that.
2 Likes
I do not disagree with you.
The entire premise of machine learning is based on precise information entering the system.
Your ftp is the first input.
Everything else is based on your ftp.
Garbage going in, garbage coming out.
Isn’t that what Alan Couzens reffered to in this tweet?
I feel like this thread is getting a bit derailed now…
2 Likes