Suggestion for those who find progressions too intense

Why do you assume that everyone who races has gone all out? Is an “all out” race a win or a failure to win because you went above your capabilities? Why are you equating a race to a training ride? how is Leadville anything comparable to a 1-2 hour training ride? Maybe that’s where you’re going wrong, overthinking it?

How did it feel?
Not
How did it feel compared to xyz race (your race)?

:slight_smile:

FWIW:
All Out: I had to use at least 1 bail out technique to finish.
Very Hard: I really thought I wasn’t going to complete, I could definitely not do any more intervals of the same type/workout.
Hard: Pretty much what I think most workouts should feel like, they were demanding but not killer and could probably do another interval or 2.

I think its pretty simple :slight_smile:

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I think YOU’re overthinking it.

Trainerroad says be honest about my answers, and answer how I feel. So I did. They didnt tell me to use YOUR ideas about how I feel.

That said, I do admit that your idea of how I feel is probably more correct than how I think I should feel, so I’ve stopped doing that. Now every workout that is fine is hard, every workout that is too challenging for what I want to do is very hard. Seems to work better.

Either way…the issue is trainerroad not explaining how the system works IMO.

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It works for me so I can’t understand how it doesn’t work for you is a strange thing to say.

That’s not what I said though. And way to completely skirt around my points/curiosities :man_shrugging:t4:

Except you did say it

What curiosity do you have that hasn’t been explained above? Ask and I’ll answer.

I think we’ve been around in circles a million times on this.

At the end of the day…IF the current system worked all the time for all the people…none of this would really matter, and it would just be a silly, philosophical discussion.

But it clearly doesn’t. So IMO the onus is on trainerroad to find a way to convince us that the system IS working, and show us very specifically the best practices to get the most out of it. Or just lose those of us who the system has no operated in a rational way for as customers

And…“answer how you feel” is not the answer any of us are looking for on that front.

Added: Just to elaborate…I have misgivings about the very basis of a computer deciding my training program for me. I dont trust the idea, I dont trust the computer. So honestly after the system very clearly did NOT work for me, I was very very close to just leaving before Chad helped fix the problem by sharing his survey chart.

But honestly…I’m only still here because of familiarity with the system. As soon as it fails me again…I’m going elsewhere. Probably Fastcat, where the dynamic seems to be reversed…coaches assisted by software, rather than software possibly assisted by coaches.

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I didnt say it works for me so it must work for you. I basically said I can’t see how it doesn’t work if you’re following the simple process and then stated my musings as to why.

The process is very simple. The outcomes are most definitely not.

And I didn’t say you did. I said

Ok cool, in that case. I think you were doing it wrong before and you need to upgrade your ratings +1 like you said previously. :+1:t4:

We’re beating a dead horse here…and I don’t even disagree with you. But I think it’s important to note that following this advice is the OPPOSITE of simply answering how you feel :joy:.

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At some point, I’d love it if more people would simply recognize this as a legit problem (aka opportunity) for TR to address, rather than repeatedly insisting the outliers here are just “doing it wrong”. Like any aspect of the TR app, it may work well for many people but there are also people that struggle with it.

To paraphrase something that really stuck with me from the Lee McCormack episode,

  • If he gives the same instruction three times to someone but they still don’t get it, he reconsiders the messaging, and then uses a new/different approach in an effort reach this student in a way that works for them.

Main point being that the “keep it simple, it’s all about feel” is fine when it works for people, but there are clear examples where that path doesn’t get a person to the intended goal. Is it really so difficult to understand that a deliberately subjective “measurement” might be variable between people with different backgrounds and experiences?

I say all this as someone who adapted to the survey pretty well, almost from the start. It paralleled a scoring system I had already been using for my own notes. The time and effort I have put into this process was a result of the clear issues we saw right from the start and still see today. I did it and continue to work on behalf of the people that are still having trouble with it despite how “simple” it is supposed to be.

I don’t have more answers than the chart or other suggestions that I’ve already given at this time. But I still consider this an open and unsolved issue for a number of users. I fully expect we will continue to see reports of issues and confusion about it. The podcast yesterday covered a specific instance that is similar to others.

The one solution offered there was a restatement that Bailouts = All Out. Great, can we actually get that in writing this time in the official TR support article? If Jon thinks that is a clear and definitive example, it seems best to record that as such. Outside of that one issue, they offered nothing new and practically ridiculed people dealing with this. It’s dismissive, lacks empathy and is disappointing IMO.

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Agreed. The whole situation strikes me as the tail wagging the dog…which as I noted above is sort of the issue I have with TR in general.

It’s pretty clear the attitude seems to be…“well this is what the software guys say to do, it’s out of our hands.”

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Thanks for posting this Chad. I think I definitely need to skip that podcast!

Don’t skip it just from my summary. I admit my own bias here, so others may take that section differently than I did (subjectivity is a thing, right???:wink: )

One thought that did ocurr to me though, for that specific example they covered (Moderate rating for a workout that failed to meet power targets and declined throughout) is that TR could employ some “error check” at the survey level. Jon specifically pointed to the workout data as the source of his review and the fact that the rating was incorrect from his review.

This is at least possible for things like missing power targets beyond some potential trigger point. If that is the case, TR could at least second guess & suggest a reevaluation when a rider selects a particularly low rating for a workout that slows problems that are not the current triggers for an actual Struggle survey (pauses, back pedals, excessive intensity reduction).

That is one way I could see the process improved, to addresses a clear instance (that may not be rare?). This is “problem solving” at a software/app level, rather than pure criticism telling people to fix themselves with no better guidance than what’s already known.

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Rate the surveys how you felt.

If progression over time feels good

Don’t change anything.

If progression over time feels unsustainable

Be open to the possibility that “hard” may have felt “very hard”.

That’s it. It’s that simple.

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Is any of that “official TR info” or what people have distilled from various discussions or sources?

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And “Moderate” may have felt “Hard”. That’s my plan.

Let’s see how it goes.

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Yea. The core thing I’ve figured out seems to be that Hard = just right. Everything else is either too hard or too easy to varying degrees.

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It’s the one adjustment I’ve made which is the suggestion I made in the original post. It has worked seamlessly for me. If a workout is rated very hard adaptive training is not going to suggest a harder workout than subscribed for the following week.

Again I’m only suggesting this if you feel like you’re on the limit and subsequent workouts are increasing your overall fatigue or reducing your overall enjoyment.

My goal is to never fail a workout. I’d rather complete a 7 or 8 out of 10 workout than fail a workout and have the subsequent workout reduce a whole PL point lower.

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