Don’t really understand what you’re on about Joe. I don’t think anyone’s ‘stressing’ about the hard stuff. There’s a bajillion posts about how to pace the easier rides on this forum and one thread dedicated to how to do the ‘red bucket’ sessions.
Personally I spent months properly understanding how to pace the long aerobic rides, now I’m turning my attention to tweeking the other end of the equation.
There’s some detailed discussion in the Iñigo San Millán training model thread (around post 539).
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I have started using it and for me at least its been a bit of a revelation. It gives me consistent results bout where LT1 is albeit with some daily variation. It’s important you use a Polar HR monitor as other monitors don’t appear to measure beat to beat variations as accurately. It put my LT1 about 20-30W and 6/8 beats higher than where I thought it was. Have a read of this for more info.
I do a i min stepped ramp at 5W per step until I cross the .75 threshold then drop the power to just below where the ramp indicates where LT1 may be then do longer steps of 6/8 mins to confirm it. One thing I also do is switch the logger on at exactly the same time as my workout recorder so the steps line up
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Its been said many times here, and elsewhere, that the hard sessions should also NOT be ‘hero’ efforts. Seiler himself has said many times that these workouts shouldn’t be done to exhaustion and you should always leave more in the tank.
The challenge is that everything on TR is based on % of FTP so often people are desperate for a number to aim for on the 4x8’s, and thats not how the study (or Seiler has said several times) is how to do it. With ERG mode, smart trainers and things like TR and Zwift, I think many people have perhaps become very reliant on hitting a number rather than understanding what the session is supposed to deliver and hence how best to ride it. There are many posts from people here that have worked that out and described how they have successfully developed these and other sessions.
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So how does one solve the puzzle, on the one hand Seiler says “leave more in the tank” on the other hand he says “executed all out”. “All out” and “leave more in the tank” are sort of mutually exclusive.
Seiler slide:
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Thats a great question - well above my pay grade!
I guess the difference MIGHT be ‘all out’ means 100% completion of the workout and no failures, versus lots of examples here where people report trying to hit a % and failing at some point during a later set??? But I’m guessing a little.
When you have figured that out you will have snatched the pebble from Seiler’s hand, grasshopper.
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If you’re holding back to complete a workout you clearly aren’t going all-out.
Surely it’s impossible to go “all out” with any frequency at all…I’m talking like a few times per year max…Possibly once a month but even then, probably not.
If you’re a grand tour rider you’ll probably go “all out” a few times per week for 3 weeks, depending on your role. Team leaders are going all out on a few climbs, the TTs, and the occasional desperate chase in the crosswinds. But that’s a pretty special situation…leading a grand tour and all.
“Failing a workout” is different, most of the time (like…nearly all of the time) you just decide it’s hurting too much and you bag it. And realistically it’s probably the best thing to do. “Hitting the nuke button for a workout…” and just tearing yourself up doesn’t make much sense.
If your max HR is 200bpm and you’re hitting 185 on your VO2 intervals, well that’s about right…but obviously it isn’t “all out” because “all out” would get you to 200.
If your hitting your FTP HR during a sweet spot interval…well that’s all of a sudden a threshold interval and you’re gonna pay for that on your next workout unless you are young. So you need to dial it back a little.
A couple of decades ago I read that kilometer track riders go “all out” just 2-3 times per year. Not sure if it’s true but I believe it!
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You can solve it a number of ways. Essentially you’re looking for the highest average power you can sustain across all the intervals and complete the session.
Yesterday I did a single 8 min interval all out which gives me an upper bound on the power I’ll be able hold across more intervals. Next week I’ll try two intervals and see what happens to the upper bound. Does it hold steady or need to come down a bit etc.
Because you can be going better some days than others. I think RPE gives a better indicator of pacing than power. So power gives a rough level to pace at but RPE will tell you where the session is likely going.
I did my session in slope mode and will probably stick with that. I don’t want ERG mode pulling me back if the RPE feels manageable.
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I tried that HRV thing and it didn’t work for me. Those alpha 1 values were all over the shop. Will read again in case I messed up the execution in some way.
There’s not a lot to be said on the low intensity really.
Ride easy, my test is reciting the alphabet A-Z without a breath. If I need to take a breath mid recital I’m working too hard.
Then try and accumulate as much time as possible for you. Preferably in fewer longer sessions if possible. But like the high intensity sessions, don’t ride for so long you are wiped out.
I did a 6 hour non stop Z1 session today. An appropriate amount of fatigue in legs, but not dying on my arse.
I wouldn’t say anyone is stressing on the high intensity element. We’re just interested in how others are going about executing these and how they are getting on.
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Meaning you did the “step test” several times and it gave wildly inconsistent results? Trying to get a baseline on whether this is a worthwhile app purchase, as while it’s definitely only $10 - it’ll be yet another purchase for training related info which I’m trying to cut back on, ha
I definitely am starting to see value in measuring resting hrv, but am skeptical of this
Only tried it once but the alpha 1 numbers coming out didn’t show a trend. I did a step test with 4 min steps of 10 watts. Maybe it needs to be preceded with a warm up so you are already at operating temp. Will reread article , maybe it needs to be a step test with shorter steps. But certainly first go revealed bugger all.
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I did one today. 24 mins of 1 min steps up to my Xert modelled LT1 of 189W then 40 mins at that wattage. Hovered around .9 to .75 before a few lower values towards the end as a little bit of a fatigue began to set in. I suspect that trimming the power by 5 watts would have brought it into line. Obviously it’s not an exact science and it’s got to be interpreted a little but as far as I’m concerned it’s very consistent . I used electrode gel on my polar H10 and got no artefacts which no doubt helped. Also moving around on the bike, getting a drink or messing with the TV remote or something doesn’t help.
What App is that? I’ve been importing the HRV data into the free PC version.
Tested HRV Logger as well and results are similar to my LT1 (lactate measured), but both 10% below Xert LTP
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The whole alphabet? Like A to Z??
And hrv, I’m a skeptic at the moment. I’d like to believe but
Joe
Another one tonight. Target was 286W, but I felt I had a little extra. Wasn’t the best day for it as I had an incredibly stressful day at work, but went at it anyway after getting my second wind post-dinner.
Managed:
#1 - 291W, 174bpm Max (90%)
#2 - 291W, 178bpm Max (92%)
#3 - 289W, 180bpm Max (93%)
#4 - 287W, 182bpm Max (94%)
On a better day, could have held all 4 at 291W, but not today. Happy with outcome, as it is slightly higher than last successful attempt, and was still something I could finish.
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More than good enough, I would say!
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