Rough W/kg to be a competitive AG(25-29M) triathlete?

Dependent on course of course. A 4W/kg heavier guy may have more raw watts on the pancake and with a good position, will likely be competitive. However, when there are any hills involved, the high w/kg shines. Higher W/kg is always better.

Also this assumes you have a good position. I am sure OP understands that with a high W/kg, it is meaningless unless you can hold a good position.

4.0-4.2 will get you into FOP bike range IMO. 4.5+ will be a top overall bike time (top 2-5%). This again assumes very slippery setup. This is from again, my experience. And power meters are variable anyways.

FOP is all I’m currently aiming for at this time, I’m no Starky, Lionel, Sam Long on the bike. But I am a front pack swimmer with historic bests of 0:49 100yd & 1:53 200yd free, my current average 100yd for a whole pool workout right now is in the mid 1:20s and I have been back in the pool for only a month, and as a previous college runner I know my run just requires me staying consistent and injury free.

I can definitely build up to a 4.2W/kg FTP seeing how quickly I jumped to 4.0W/Kg last summer with just a few months of consistent training. Just like building this fitness I understand that having a nice bike and holding a fast position is important and as the money comes they can be addressed, but making sure I’m on track in terms of fitness in all three are what I’m focused on while that money is saved up.

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I’d agree with a lot of whats said here. All other things being equal over 4W/kg should see you towards the FOP, 4.5W/kg+ to be at the pointy end.

Sounds like you’re heading in the right direction and if you’ve a background in swimming and running, cycling is the easiest part of triathlon to improve. It’s less hard on the body than running and less technical than swimming. Given it’s the bulk of most triathlons it’s also where you’ll make the most significant time improvements.

It doesn’t specifically address W/kg (It does look at 5 and 20min Power) but the link below is pretty decent at identifying performance benchmarks and might give you an idea of where you are and where you want to be.

https://alancouzens.com/blog/benchmarks.html

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You don’t need an expensive bike to be competitive. Most of the gains come from body position. Even with the current market (used) I am confident that you could piece together a very competitive setup for 1000 bucks give or take. One that could easily compete with the super bikes as long as you have the engine. If you have time and passion right now instead of $ then all you need to do is some research, and be patient. Really dig into bike fit and numbers. If I were you I would be looking for an older Cervelo p3 circa 2012 or so (I have seen them for as little as 500 in the overpriced PNW). Then from there dial in your fit and clean up cables and front end etc. search classified ads for older deep wheels, don’t be scared of 10 speed and you can find some quality for around 200 bucks. Get a used aero helmet, and just focus on optimizing your setup.

Depends on 2 factors IMO:

  1. How good your swim and run are
  2. Distance (i.e. sprint/olympic vs 70.3/full)

At shorter distances, you don’t have to be very strong on the bike to podium since they skew much more toward the swim and run as a % of time. It does depend on your weight though since raw watts matter more than w/kg even on hilly courses, but I think you could get away with as low as 3w/kg and still podium if you’re a front pack swimmer and a top runner. At the longer distances, you’re riding pretty well below FTP so that doesn’t matter- what’s more important is being able to ride consistently within yourself and run off of that effort.

Personnel anecdote about short course races from this year(local race but competitive, 300+ starters)- I’m 26, ~158lbs, 4.2w/kg FTP, super slow swimmer, FOP cyclist, and near FOP runner. Did 1 sprint (normal swim/run distances, plus 19 mile bike) and one olympic- both had very hilly bike and run courses. Sprint, I was ~3 mins down coming out of the water, did 286NP (4w/kg) in 44’ for fastest bike split to move into 2nd, and got passed by 1 guy who ran sub 17 5k to finish 3rd (19’ 5k with 180ft elevation gained in the run). Olympic, I had swam 3 times in the prior 8 months and came out like 6+ mins back on the leaders. 280NP (3.9w/kg) for 1 hour for fastest bike split by almost 3 mins, then 40’ 10k (360ft elevation gain) to get me into 7th. I was just under 2 mins off the podium, so being a slightly less terrible swimmer would’ve gotten me onto the podium. Both of those races I needed to drop 4w/kg since I’m such a slow swimmer, but the athletes who finished near me that swam better were probably 3.2-3.5w/kg on the bike. Each race I also got repassed in the run by someone dropping sub 6’ miles.

If you look at the last years podcasts that aired in October, there were always age group triathletes interviewed that made it to Kona. You can get a reasonable idea of their FTP and setup/details.

Agree that 4.0-4.5W/kg and 270-300W absolute is where it gets interesting.

I understand your TT bike limitations but don’t worry about it. Do the best you can with what you have now and upgrade when you have the chance. A TT bike is a lot of fun. unless you live in Sweden where the bike season is short and it is collecting dust in the garage.

I’m 29, 5’7" and about 147 pounds at race weight and I’m a top 20% finisher at least in any olympic, 1/3 or half distance I enter. I’m I would say a front of the MOP swimmer (about 1’35"/100m in a wetsuit olympic swim), 304W FTP (about 4.6W/kg) so that’s what gets me in touch with the FOP (I rode my last half at about 240W avg, about 3.8W/kg). My run is reasonable with a sprint race 5k of 4’04"/km, olympic of 4’16"/km and half of 4’27"/km so usually I more or less maintain position there. I get overtaken by a few and I still pass a few guys.

I started training in all 3 sports 4.5 years ago, no previous experience in any. Used to do combat sports for 12 years and went to the gym a bit during my Masters studies.

First, ignore everybody who has been talking about watts per kg, unless you’re going to race in the mountains. W/kg only matters in vertical movement and during accelerations.

Second, young age groups are typically much less competitive than M30 or M40. People in their twenties are broke and not interested in triathlon. Don’t listen to people who are 10-20 years your senior and are talking about their own (recent) experiences.

Third, the single most important factor for getting on the podium is how big the race is. Being 3rd in a 20-person age group is easier than being 3rd in a 200-person age group. Since Chicago is your target race, I suggest you go to their website and see the results from 2019. Check the times of M25-29 podium finishers. Think how you would fare against them (on that particular course) in the swim and run, then calculate what time you would need to finish in on the bike. The course looks pancake flat, with a few switchbacks and sharp turns which will slow you down (and also make w/kg a bit more meaningful, but not very) but overall quite fast. Set up a free account with Best Bike Split. You can enter one race and use the free account forever, updating the “one race” as you change from race to race. Use settings that reflect relatively poor aero (you don’t have to enter any frontal area measurements or coefficients, etc., if you don’t have them; use descriptive settings in drop-down lists). BBS is not ideal, but it should give you some idea of what to expect in terms of speed.

Alternatively, and maybe preferably, just estimate your speed based on your own experience. I use speeds and powers from the same courses or similar ones. If I target a higher average power than before, I assume I’ll gain 1% in speed per every 2% in increased power.

I for one will average around 23 mph in a flat race at 250 watts race intensity on my cheap TT bike, maybe 22 mph on a road bike with clip-ons. I’m 5’11" and weigh 186 pounds. Note that clip-ons can be a huge benefit versus riding on the drops, even on a road bike. The one thing that matters in aero is how low you can get head and shoulders (maybe without compromising power too much). The problem with a road bike is not that the bars or frame aren’t so aero, but that it typically won’t allow you to get as low on your clip-ons as a tri bike on tri bars. So you can try to get lower, see how flexible your bike is.

P.S. I’ve been on the age group podium (a local sprint duathlon, 24-person age group of M30-39 - see how much race selection matters :wink: ) and just missed the AG podium by one spot in a sprint tri yesterday (40 people in my now-M40 AG). I’m a shit swimmer and I bike better than I run.

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We are back to the beginning, it’s w/CdA that matters, but OP said that he does not want a W/CdA metric (and understandably so). W/kg is absolutely important/ having high watts and low body mass is always superior to high watts and high body mass, assuming wattages are the same. Unless you are some weird pencil man who has a low FSA, which lets be honest… doesn’t exist.

The second point depends on who shows up, but the 25-29 AG I have been in include top overall finishers. I also think the people replying here have enough experience to back up their claims; a 4W/kg will typically get you to into FOP range assuming you are not a kite and your PM is pretty accurate.

People in their mid 20s+ are fast as fuck. I duno what you are talking about.

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Guessing, but I think he’s indicating density of decent competition in that AG is very low compared to AGs between 30 (really 35) to 49. I mainly focus on long course and am in 35-39 and in Ironman branded US races my AG will have 10 plus guys at sub 4:30 overall (for 70.3). The fastest AGers are usually 25-29, but I’ve done races where nobody fast in that AG shows up and I’d win that AG with a 4:22 or something but get 5th in mine.

At least I think that’s what he’s saying.

To the OP, I generally ride 2:10-2:15 for a 70.3 and that’s on 260-275w avg. I’m 6’2 and 165-170lbs. I don’t use ftp as a metric for anything because it has little applicability to the races I choose. Instead, I keep trying to push up my 3hr power, etc.

For reference, the people that I’m friends with that ride around the same times are also pushing similar watts. For triathlon, as others have said, w/kg is a good benchmark, but unless you’re racing in the mountains absolute watts relative to position is what matters. All of the folks that finish around me are of varying body types (not overly heavy though).

Yeah around here the overall top racers almost always come from the 25-39 age groups. There’s typically less competitors in the 20-29 age groups, so they aren’t as deep, but at least in my experience if you’re racing at the top of those age groups you’re towards the front of the race anyway. This skews a little older as the races get longer, but still applies.

Thank you,

I’m not a novice athlete, I’m just using W/kg as a relative equalizer because I know comparing just a raw FTP doesn’t paint the whole picture, especially with riders of different heights and weights. But W/CdA is a money and position equation, while W/kg is better than the former at comparing riders’ fitness levels. And because it’s not the ideal metric to compare triathletes, I know to just look for the average range of that value.

But what I’m taking away from this is getting up to 4.2-4.5W/kg should be what I work towards over the next year or two.

Of course the answer is “it depends”, W/Cda matters a lot, raw power is valuable on the bike, but bigger guys will then suffer on the run… and the type of course matters. So W/kg matters but maybe not entirely on the bike. But it depends…

My n=1:

I qualified for AG world championships (in my late 30s) at 3.65W/kg. But the bike wasn’t my strongest leg at the time.

In a scattered training year in my early 40s, I placed top 6 in my category at an IM 70.3 at just 3.33W/kg, and was just a few min off Worlds qualification.

I won my AG in various races in my 20s at not more than 3.6W/kg.

All that said, in the 70.3, I had a strong swim and run. In my local races, I’m usually top three out of the water and have a top 2-3 run split too.

So… it depends… I would say a strong runner and sufficient swimmer could compete for podiums at 3.5 here in San Diego, but like in most races, stronger cyclists will have a big, big advantage.

And That’s why I’m focused on the bike for a few years while out of the tri game. :wink:

Now having read the whole thread, with your bike power, my guess is it isn’t the bike that’s your limiter anyway. Rather than trying to squeeze out 10 more W on the bike, your time might be better invested running or swimming or skills (sighting and swimming straight, transitions) IMO, but I don’t know anything else about you than what you’ve written here.

Don’t fall into the trap of focusing on your strengths for marginal gains. You don’t need to be 4.2W/kg if you’re good at the other sports. Attack your limiters.

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I think you need to focus on race execution more so than a specific power or pace number. Right now your training paces are really far off from your 2:44 finish time. For reference, I averaged just over 21 mph on a very windy OLY with a cross bike and 28C tires and a NP around 240 (3.4 w/kg). Which by the way, in that race, which was mostly a local race, 5th overall was 3rd in 25-29. Isn’t Chicago supposed to be a fairly competitive race? I’d focus on how to get all three legs to work together to get your best time possible.

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Exactly. Your fastest bike leg might make your run significantly slower.

Anecdotally…

I was second 30-34 AG at St George 70.3 and was probably around 4.7 w/kg then (83kg). Did 327np for 25mph.

First overall amateur at Boulder 140.6 around the same watts/kg. I think I did 290np at 25mph. I’m sure my bike position could have been better.

I would think anything over 4 watts/kg with a great bike position would put you in the hunt, and over 4.5 should be getting you on the podium if all the other facets are decent.

My focus on the bike portion is because my run and swim are my strengths. I can still hold 1:20s for 100yds easily. And while I was a middle distance runner in college and never ran a race longer 5km I have logged 40min 10ks and 90min 13.1s in training before. So with keeping those areas of training consistent my emphasis is on the bike because it’s the discipline I have the least lifetime hours in.

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My point is that there have been pros out there at 4.0W/kg. If you’re at the power you say and you train 40min 10k and 90min halfs, your race execution is your limiter, specifically your ability to run off the bike and swim open water, maybe transitions. Raw run and swim times don’t translate well anyway, and neither your swim nor your run is particularly “fast” if they’re your strengths.

I keep bringing up transitions because at AG Nationals in 2016 I qualified for worlds largely because of the difference in transitions. I beat some guys in transition by nearly two min aggregate. So some guys who were faster than me finished behind me.

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