Way better post than mine (not that it’s a competition LOL). This is all classic Steve.
The thing I forgot that your post reminded of is that Steve really really really wanted YOU to figure it out. He wanted to show you some things, and then you solve the puzzle. I’ll be honest, it was frustrating at times but in retrospect I think it is a great way. SO MANY ppl wondering why no intensity, why no this, why no that. LOL. Meanwhile they’re getting better (ppl posting numbers on the site, etc.)
@AJS914 I’m with you on the “whys”, etc. Honestly, Steve himself might not be, not really sure. But I think it’s what you’re saying.
If love to hear more if you dont mind. I remember hearing the Flo podcast with Steve Neal a while back and fixated on the idea of raising fatmax because I’d been struggling to lose weight for a while. I don’t mean to go down the fatmax route, but I’m curious about your experience here about getting fitter on and off the bike.
If one is interested in the Balance Point type of training, any podcast with Andrew Sellars will also have great info. (He’s done a few.) Just search “Luke Ways” or “Andrew Sellars” on your podcast app or on youtube. They are all disciples of Jeurg Feldmann like Steve.
A tempo build burns a ton of KJs. The other Flo podcast to listen to is with Bob Sebohar. Steve mentions him. I bought Sebohar’s book. I’m not sure I 100% agree with it. It seems to be about limiting some carbs and portion control while not actually counting calories. If you followed his diet recommendations and did a tempo build, you will definitely be in a calorie deficit.
I personally, did not lose a ton of weight doing the tempo build. Maybe just a few pounds. My diet though was already very clean so I didn’t have a lot of change.
I’ve read and re-read many sections of this post where you had initially chimed in and also @AJS914 post on the fast talk labs forum, and I’ve listened to so many of his different podcast. It really seems like his approach to training is quite different to the standard base, build, peak that I am so accustomed to. I was curious about his weight training/strength training regimen as well. @batwood14 - you mention you were your fittest, leanest, strongest. Did you also utilize his strength program or a variation of it? If so, what did you typical week look like? I know he alternates trainer sessions and strength, but I’ve also read, IIRC that he may have done some body weight work mixed with the trainer sessions.
I’m fascinated by his approach, and how he focuses on breath work, etc… it’s just so different from what I usually see and read about training.
Steve supposedly was working on a respiratory training module on Fasttalk but it seems to have gone nowhere. Steve also seems to no longer answer questions on their forum so I’m thinking that they can no longer afford to pay him. It’s too bad that that forum is a ghost town because it had some of the most intelligent conversation on training out there.
If one does some research on respiratory training, you start seeing that Swiss mountain bikers like Nino Schurter and Olympians in other sports are doing it with their 1,500 euro Spirotigers. I think it hasn’t really caught on with amateurs because you need some testing/evaluation and then you need the expensive device to really do it right. (Now you can get a cheaper device from Isocapnic - Luke Way’s company.)
I just started playing around with the Isocapnic device.
Interesting - thanks for the update. Too bad he’s not active on there - it was pretty incredible how willing he was to answer questions and even dig into people’s training history at his own time and expense and even put the information into his training programs.
One thing that he said was that no matter what coach or training philosophy you follow, you have to follow it for it to work, basically don’t jump around trying different things and expect to get any meaningful results. I couldn’t agree more which is why I stopped going down the rabbit hole…although I continue to be very tempted.
Ok … this is my interpretation of things, so if you disagree or challenge me on anything I’m not sure I will be able to defend. As I say anytime I give my opinion: I’m not a physiologist or a coach.
So, 2 things:
If you can be on the bike more, you can be on the bike more. And if you can be on the bike more, you’re going to lose weight. If you’re able to stay in this constant state of ‘stimulation’ without ever over-doing it you will get faster or more resilient or both and will lose weight because you’re riding and recovering simultaneously.
This next one might be more controversial to some trained physiologists and those who think published “science” is the answer to everything. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-science AT ALL, I just think the nature of of scientific studies is flawed and generally only measure one thing over a finite period of time … whereas the answer often lies in how multiple systems in your body work together. With that said …
The execution of Steve’s tempo work involves low(er) cadence work and stand/sit intervals. I think published science AFAIK says there is no benefit to low cadence work over regular riding at an identical output. BUT … if you are riding at 60-65 RPM at (for instance) 80% FTP for 2 hours, do you know what you need? You need a strong core. And if you don’t have a strong core … you’ll f#cking get one. I started developing a full-on 6-pack at 46 y.o. As a corollary, if you are taking a 90 minute interval and riding at 65 RPM, and then for every 5 minutes you ride you are sitting for 4/standing for 1, you are going to be activating your glutes and your core A LOT, and in ways that doing the same wattage at 85-95 RPM would not be be. If you are comparing only the cardiovascular adaptations of this work … maybe there is no difference. But if you have a strong core, and you have glutes that are activated and accessible your knees are probably going to track better, your posture is going to be maintainable for longer, your back will hurt less as you fatigue you won’t get out of alignment … i.e. you won’t get injured, and because of that … you’ll be able to ride your bike more and maintain power for longer from a muscular perspective, not just just a cardiovascular one. And if you can ride more, longer and stronger than another person because they have a weaker core and knee pain, you’re going to get faster than them, and lose more weight.
I’ll go to my grave espousing that “the best ability is availability” and die on that hill.
Similarly … I read on this board that some physiologist whose name I can’t remember said recently something to the effect of ‘in well trained athletes any session that is only an hour long won’t make you faster’ … and I think that is such irresponsible BS. If you do a decent high Z2 ride for 60-90 minutes, maybe you won’t get faster but you won’t get slower. And maybe a person who reads that is going to skip the bike that day because they don’t have the time to “get faster” and they have some sort of marginal detraining… then when do have time for a “get faster” session they are going to be starting from further back than the person who did a 60 minute ride, and in this way the 60 minute rides will ABSOLUTELY help you get faster. Also, you’ll lose more weight.
Last disclaimer … I wouldn’t read this and jump into 60-65 RPM intervals straight away. Work your way down to 80 … then 70-80, 60-70 for ten mins at a time and see how it goes. Then extend time, etc.
Honestly, I really don’t know anything … but this is my 2c. Good luck🤘
I did not do any strength work with him - but I did supplement the rides with planks, pull-ups and push-up about 2-4 times a week … each session lasting ~10 mins.
There was no typical week with Steve … much of that was due to me. I was traveling about 3 days a week at the time and the days varied. Even when I look back at those weeks, I can’t find what I would call a “typical” example.
Also, as a point of clarification, I did do high intensity work with Steve … but only within 6-8 weeks of a race. And then the Vo2 work was only once a week. It looked much more like a pyramidal/semi-polarized plan for race prep.
So Steve had you stand for a full minute every five? That’s the first time I’ve heard of this technique.
I also wanted to say that I never ever hit the HR cap or even came close. My 83% of HRmax is around 155 and by my third or fourth 20 minute interval I’d be at around 143bpm.
For those wanting to try these intervals, Steve also tracks the intervals by HR factor. For example: 200 watts / 140bpm average = 1.43. If after some period of time you notice yourself doing the same intervals at a lower heart rate then you know that you are getting fitter. (Factor goes higher.) One can track this in a spreadsheet over time.
My biggest obstacle to tempo training was the time on the trainer not that I couldn’t complete the intervals or even do more. I did 3x20 and towards the end of my build did a few 4x20 sessions. I just didn’t want to do 3x30s. It was a challenge to be on the trainer that long pushing good watts and finding two hours of content to watch for the session. And there’s no way you could do this type of training outdoors unless you have some nice pan flat long, straight roads, or some appropriate 20-30 minute climbs … IMO.
Yep, and as a n=1 example of what I said above about it being individual with regard to intensity, I never did this. Instead, I cheated and did my own unstructured intensity to break things up, and then also used early races. With other riders he likely did other stuff. But he always tracked MAP compared this other thing that we will call “threshold” for the purposes of this discussion (LBP).
Me: “I cheated and did a hard group ride with my buddies”
Steve: “Did you have fun?”
Me: “Yeah”
Steve: “That’s great”
I don’t want to derail this discussion, so I won’t dig it up, but I’m pretty sure the correct way to interpret what was said was along the lines of do the hard work in the right dosage and fill the rest with low intensity at the right dosage to not overdo it. That means many people need to replace some of their SS with tempo or tempo with endurance as they increase hours. In that context, they said the endurance should ideally be long (4+ hours) once in a while to get the most adaptations (TTE), but did not mean shorter endurance rides aren’t valuable. I think they would agree that it’s good maintenance, which is still part of getting / staying fast.
Yep. And I really enjoy it because it has the added benefit of kinda mentally breaking up the really long intervals … you’re always just few minutes away from a change, rather than looking at 30-60 minute intervals as these interminable blocks.
Okay, so I’ll give some numbers as I’m not sure the answer. MaxHR 201bpm. So, 83% = 166bpm.
3x30’ on Tuesday = 296w/155bpm; 296w/159bpm; 294w/157bpm
1x60’ on Wednesday = 305w/155bpm
How do I know if these intervals are ‘balanced’? My HR will move around depending on whether I get out the saddle, reach for a bottle, send a message, etc. I also like to negatively split intervals (TT habit).
Bingo, I do that inside for saddle comfort breaks and outside for the same basic goal as well as pure variety. Outside I tend to mix in landmarks like signs, turns, hills and such for those markers in addition to pure time if I am in longer and more boring sections.
Don’t micromanage your HR, would be my 2c on this.
For instance, my/your/everyone’s HR is going to go up when you get out of the saddle. Disregard that. I’m sure there is some value in monitoring it, but unless you know what that value is … disregard it.
A real-world example based on my earlier comment would be: if you are doing a 60 min interval while sitting for 4min/standing for 1min … pay attention to your HR from minute 3-4 of the sitting portion. That is the HR that mostly correlates with physiological cost (this my opinion, no scientific basis to back that up).
Shorter answer: every time you do something that causes your HR to rise, give yourself ~3mins to settle back in and see where you’re at.
The goal of these workouts is not to keep raising power, it’s to increase time in zone. Without metabolic cart testing, only raise your power if your FTP has gone up otherwise keep in tempo.
If you are time crunched, then take a break and do a threshold TTE build. Or, move on to some VO2max work.
