Power is not definitive, it is a factor, the same as HR

Training
41

HR lags. It is a given. Agreed. The duration of the intervals are designed for the runner. 2 minutes may not be sufficient for some. I personally require a minimum of 3 minutes to get to the zone and depending where I am in the training will determine how long I stay there. In the equivalent running workout of VO2 Max it is not uncommon from perriodized training fatigue to gash the VO2Max workout for something else if the HR zone cannot be obtained. In TR you do it anyway … it is just beating yourself up and not gaining the benefits your looking for.

Thank you! I have been kicking around TR for 4 - 5 years. I design my own VO2Max workouts. Don;t get me wrong TR provides a “good” stock set of workouts and periodized training but I believe it really misses the mark on VO2Max.

42

No doubt both HR and power have their uses. However, tracking whether the line is going up, to the right or both is pretty hard to corral with HR. Power just ends up being a much better proxy for fitness trends and therefore easier to validate training.

43

I too thought HR was really important when I first came to TR, because I had been using it so much until then. I have since dropped that assumption and learned otherwise :slight_smile:

“… athletes may also use a device that measures their heart rate alongside power, as a secondary metric. The key thing here is they use heart rate as a complement to their power data as a way to tell a more broad story about their training, rather than using it as a sole guiding metric.”

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44

There’s a meme in here somewhere, but I think of the progression as something like

HR is all I have, this is awesome. HR is king
Discover power, oh my god, what is this? How do I use it?
Power is life, nothing else matters
HR does matter, must stay in my proper zones and HRV will drive my power
There is no single data point that matters and all of it helps guide your training

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45

:wink:

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46

Is that the peak of inflated FTP :joy:?

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47

JoeX,

Thanks for that. I haven’t yet had time to listen / read the attachment but I assume your quote is a good synopsis and that is what I stated and what I think.

Cheers.

Reading TR’s promotional material they totally focus on power, and contrary to other people’s cognitive dissonance driven responses we are all here because we believe in power.

Make your hard work pay off with structured, power-based interval training.

to quote TR’s website.

I think that ignoring HR is missing a potential benefit and something that whilst more difficult than power to utilise should be discussed and not treated like a mischievous disreputable cousin we deny any knowledge of.

After all while those who pump out the trite “Power is Power a Watt is a Watt” should understand the other trite phrase “information is power” and the more information you have the better. The only caveat there is the need to understand that, but then that applies to power too and I don’t believe Andy Coggan has yet joined in the debate.

Speaking of professionals there’s a coach, he’s coached Garmin Team (Slipstream), worked with some Spanish chap Contador and coached a young guy who may be good one day Tadej Pogacar. He is Inigo San MIllan and is quoted as saying

In terms of what modalities I use when prescribing training, I like to combine RPE, power and HR as much as possible, I think they all have their place.

I think Inigo’s view & experience out ranks me and I’m guessing most of the opinions within this echo-chamber and also most world class coaches including (and dare I say it?) Coach Chad.

Here’s his view

https://scientifictriathlon.com/tts262/#tab-con-3

Lots of really interesting information, if you’re interested in listening, especially 44:00.

IIRC - He actually says HR is the best indicator of physiological response or words to that effect…and he says as far as physiology is concerned watts are not always watts! But he only has a PhD and is a professional.

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48

Other than the occasional contrarian on the forum, is anyone seriously advocating completely ignoring HR as a metric?

49

Why is it that I am always in the Trough of Disillusionment then?

:wink:

50

TR doesn’t mention it(HR) in their publicity & promo stuff.

51

And?

That doesn’t mean they advocate ignoring it.

Anyway…we seem to be beating a dead horse here. I don’t think anyone is seriously suggesting ignoring HR, which is what you seem to be claiming.

52

No @anon13702412 I’m certain in my statement; your attachment may be right, might be wrong. However as we’re playing in TR’s sand pit the Podcast 285 is the one I’m referring to.
And As I said originally I found lower cadence = lower HR AND declared this was a sample size of N=1. So I may be an outlier in this instance. But my point was generic and transferrable (as TR’s podcast 285 and I assume your podcast may indicate) that power at different cadences apparently created different physiological responses therefore does that mean power at a given rate in a defined zone may actually not be in that zone if the HR does not indicate that, with the declared caveat that this is not applicable to VO2 or above due to HR lag.

53

That fact we’re happy with power is not an assumption.

If we’re not happy with TR and TR using power as the critical metric why are we still here then? That’s not an assumption, at it’s weakest it’s a presumption based on the fact everyone who is engaged with and using TR is choosing to do so and voting with their time & wallets; at it’s most robust interpretation of their actions it’s a fact.

And power is not wrong, but both on a personal basis and contemporary scientific analysis it is being recognised as not absolute and HR is being considered as important and worthy of consideration. Not sure of the hierarchy, but it is in the mix.

54
  • I won’t speak for anyone else, but I am here because I can still use the calendar, plans, workout app, analysis tools and any other aspect of the TR service… without needing to lock myself into their specific ideology. As I’ve already mentioned, I use HR and RPE in my own ways.

Simply put, I don’t see this as black and white. It’s possible to use any number of TR aspects and not follow just their info exclusively. Lots of people use the TR workout and app, but have a coach or do their own training plan. LOTS of ways to leverage any and all aspects within this large service.

Most of us agree that we see value in metrics other than power, to see a broader picture. I don’t get your end game here. What point are you trying to prove that hasn’t already been acknowledged by most of us?

If you are trying to convince TR to incorporate HR or other metrics, you’d be better approaching this as a Feature Request.

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55

Because you’re in the trough of disillusionment and gazing at the slope of enlightenment and thinking it’s too steep a climb.

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56

Bike HR is not the same as running HR.
Plus, HR like other have said before, have too many variances. From personal things (like nutrition, resting, other wo) to HRM (chest strap, watch, OHM on the arm, etc) to weather (cold, hot, humid, wind)

Ive done my share of JD. And as far as i can remember, I never used HR for anything other than making sure my easy was easy. When I trained and was doing Threshold run (1hr max effort) I was doing on pace, never on HR. I never slowed down if my HR would hit 190 on a 5T run. It would made the run a total shit show and i would feel like shit after it, tho.

Point is, Power on the Bike is probably the most accurate and should be what you follow. I wish we had similar in running.

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57

I am not saying your anecdotal evidence isn’t there. I also don’t argue that cadence and power have an influence on stress. Though the conclusion you took seems to be off. That’s at least what the science out there indicates… :man_shrugging:t3:

58

Same.

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59

Another N=1 point for HR not a great metric…

I was doing a endurance indoor ride last Friday. It was about .7 IF
My HR was slightly elevated. Got to 160s.
Was I feeling like i was reaching… nah…
The room was hotter than usual, and I had done a wo the day before, so i knew what happened.

Yesterday i did a .75 IF long ride (3hr) and HR was about the same as Friday, even tho i had a force (low cadence/high power) wo the day before. The room was much cooler and the wo from the day before felt much better.

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60

Another N=1 example…I have a pair of Desoto Tri bibs that have compression. When I wear them on the trainer, my HR is always ~10bpm higher than normal shorts. Something about the compression aspect seems to jack my HR.

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