I remember Nate mentioning in one of the podcasts about the importance of the “rest” intervals and how we should not cheat it as it is important for progress. Now this makes sense (after watching Dylan’s video) as the rest intervals are “Zone 1” (as per video)… TR had data which I “feel” they know “something” but is a trade secret they don’t want to reveal… maybe…
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What’s my conclusion based on this video is that POL is better then SS during weeks before the A event. It does not show any longer term differences between doing SS during base period and then progressing to POL vs. doing POL all the time. My personal experience is that I can not do over the threshold efforts for so many weeks without burn out. So I’m left with just endurance vs SS during early part of the season. I wouldn’t have time to do required load without SS workouts. It then all comes down to very popular approach that the closer the event the intensity rises and you fill the volume with less taxing endurance (recovery) rides → POL.
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I agree, while Trainerroad does have sweet spot in their marketing, I don’t think much of it is sweet spot and I’m not sure the sweet spot is really meant as a substitute for traditional base training, but rather prep for more intense pyramidal training. We assume Dylan is talking about Trainerroad in his vid, but I don’t think he is or if he is, I don’t think it’s apples to apples.
It is and it isn’t. I’ve done both and from my n=1 observations the only real differences are:
Trad Base: more time, less fatigue
SSB: less time, more fatigue
If you have 20hrs a week to ride and you actually want to ride that much, do Trad Base. If you’re time crunched, SS is your best bet, but you will need to consciously manage your fatigue.
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This is true, in particular when you look at the full range of plans within the TR system. SS is part of many of them, but hardly the only or even emphasis in that many. Even the some of the so-called “Sweet Spot Base” plans aren’t exclusively SS. The High Volume is, but the Low and Mid Volume include work in other zones. That is more true when you get into the second half of those SSB plans, where SS becomes a minor or at least even aspect with VO2 and Threshold work.
Not true in my eyes, at least with respect to TR and their plans. They specifically point people to SSB over Trad as a rule. That is true for all but special cases from what I have seen, with TR pointing to limited time and the benefits of more intensity (SSB) vs longer hours at Z2 intensity (Trad).
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Personally I’m doing TB this year on an 8-9 hour a week budget. Maybe my time would be better spent doing SS with that amount of time, but I want to see how the TB changes my outdoor performance in 2021, specifically being able to do big rides back to back. Will see what happens
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Maybe a better way to say it is that it does double duty as a base substitute AND ALSO prep for the more intensity work ahead.
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I honestly don’t think that anywhere near 20 hours is the cutoff. I’d call 5-6 hours time crunched. One can do more intensity when they are only riding 3-4 days per week because they have many more rest days.
Once you’re at 8-10-12 hours per week and riding 5-6 days per week then you have to think more about the intensity distribution and how much you can rest.
Personally, I got the biggest single block gain out of doing Seiler Z1 polarized base miles. I started off at 8 hours per week and ramped up to 13 hours in my last week. The average was probably 10 hours per week over 10 weeks. I got a 20 point FTP bump and was breaking all my Strava PRs at the end of this block. I felt exactly what Seiler describes - that my lactate curved had shifted. I was putting out more power at lower heart rates across the board. So I’m totally on board with Seiler when he says you can shift your lactate curve on 6 hours per week.
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One thing that I think has been hinted at but I haven’t really seen discussed in any of this is the resiliency of each type of fitness and where each methodology could fit into a year round training plan. I’m not surprised at all by the conclusion that doing more Z3 work leads to more improvements in fitness than primarily Z2 work. This is very well established and its why you do VO2 work in the build phase, but it also isnt sustainable and degrades more quickly. We also know that Z1/2 work leads to much more sustained fitness and can be done in higher volumes which is what this is done in base.
I think this really isn’t a question of which is better but when each is applicable, and I think this is reflected in the construction of TR plans and other plans I have seen.
I don’t think the intention of Dylan’s video was to tell us we should abandon SS all together, but rather present the data and draw conclusions. As with any study, I think the conclusion presents more questions and warrants additional discussion and hopefully another video to clarify and provide more context.
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Really useful post - thanks
Can I just check if you were describing doing ONLY Z1 base miles during these blocks or did you ‘polarise’ with some high intensity in those 10 hrs as well?
I get the impression it was ‘base’ Z1 only but wanted to just clarify - thanks
I don’t know about others but doing traditional base on a trainer would require much more mental effort. I need intervals to keep me happy training indoors. So for me SSB is a better training method, at least until I can get outdoors.
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Indeed. Indoor Z2 over an hour is a special thing. I actually kinda like it, but I add plenty of diversion in the form of Zwift, videos, reading and the like, to help pass the time. But I am an odd person in that respect, and most people seem to really dislike these rides at 90mins or longer.
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I’ve completed SSB1 MV and 4 weeks into SSB2 MV. I’m 95%+% compliant but for the last 4 weeks I’ve subbed the “long ride” on Sunday. And did that once I think is SSB1. Intervals.icu puts this at pyramidal. Decent amount of Zone 2 and more time at threshold than SS. So would agree that HV is really the only mostly SS base plan.
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I did a polarized base. For intensity, I did our club’s Saturday 2 hour group ride. On that ride one probably sees about 15 minutes of threshold, and 30 minutes of sweet spot plus a lot of Z1/2 mixed in. So figure 45 minutes of intensity per week. The rest was really slow Seiler style Z1 (125bpm for me).
When I started it was excruciatingly slow at 125bpm - like 12mph slow. When all was said and done, that 125bpm became more like 18mph. This is what happens when you shift your lactate curve to the right.
That all worked out to around a 95/5% distribution counting threshold and SS as the intensity.
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Thanks - and just to be a PITA as I know this is buried in one of the Pol threads, but how did you calculate your HR for the Z1 stuff?
Thanks again
After reading the endless posts of Polarized vs. Sweet Spot, the “if you don’t have 20 hrs to train then the long and slow approach is not worth it…” statement is misleading. Plans I have seen and completed are in the 10-16 hour range, with others considering “time-crunched” to be 5-8 hours. The consistent 20 hour week is a straw man.
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I use a hybrid and average 12.5hr/week annually. More SST for base into build then more polarized the closer to a big target race. But, inside the hybrid I do use group rides that are race oriented to supplement intensity ala Ned Overend style. While not as good as dorking out on intervals they are better for maintaining other skills and being extremely extrinsically motivated I hit numbers I can’t in “training”.
The hard part about all of this is to be honest with yourself and try and figure out what can improve your training. Just because someone does polarized, SST or pyramid means less than zero to me. Everyones experience, history, genes, age and time to ride are unique.
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I went by the recommendation that Seiler throws out on podcasts - 65% of HRmax. I ended rounding up to 70% because 65% was 118bpm and was really, really, ridiculously slow riding for me. 125bpm was a good round number I could live with. Even then it was a really slow pace at first.
Coincidentally my MAF (Maffetone’s system) heart rate is 126bpm.
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Lulz
“I don’t often do intensity, but when I do, I do it like this.” —The World’s Most Interesting Man
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