Polarized Training vs. Sweet Spot (Dylan Johnson video)

To your point about different sports, polarized vs sweet spot is a very different debate for other endurance sports besides cycling. Running at moderate and above volumes almost HAS to be polarized by itself- spending significant time running at SS will almost certainly lead to injuries because of the high impact nature of the sport, even if the cardiovascular system can sustain it. So if you can’t spend much time near threshold and above, you’re only option to build aerobic endurance performing that sport is to add in a lot of easier, less demanding training. On the flipside, swimmers do a ton of HIIT training and spend a LOT of time near or above threshold, even for aerobic events (which I would consider a 400 or longer). Swimming is the ultimate low-impact sport, and the only risk if from repetitive use injuries in the shoulder (which come from total volume and form moreso than intensity). It’s critical to have a high VO2 max and maintain good form for swimming, which is why their training sets are split up into short intervals with static rest.

Cycling doesn’t really have any limiters in terms of injury risk and is less taxing on the body then XC skiing or swimming, so you can do either approach with success. Measuring outcomes is also so diverse in cycling that it’s hard to quantify which produced better outcomes- meaning that even if sweet spot hypothetically produces larger FTP gains, that won’t be indicative of performance for a short track MTB or crit racers. On the flipside, I don’t think a long-course triathlete or gran fondo rider would care about peak 5 min power or anaerobic repeatability.

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All pretty much common sense, eh? If only Seiler had thought things thru this way, perhaps the world wouldn’t be in the mess it it.

Seems many are moving to a similar position.

I don’t think the time in zones needs to be so extreme, meaning VT1 and V02 etc.

I’ve simply taken the polarized sessions advice, that seems to be quite effective, for me at least. Do a majority of your training at a lower enough intensity that you can recover and also execute your harder days.

This lower intensity could be endurance, tempo, hell, for some maybe it is sweet spot.

The art seems to be working out what is a fairly optimum endurance intensity, then working out what duration you can deal with. The blunt instrument version of this, I guess is TSS. Hypothetically, you’re trying to do the absolute maximum endurance/tempo TSS daily, that you can just recover from.

You’re then sprinkling in the high intensity days you need. That depends on another million factors. Obviously, younger athletes can tolerate more high intensity. Maybe, an 18y junior can adapt well on 3 hard days a week. Equally, maybe this crushes a 60y veteran in weeks.

The whole game is working out YOUR optimum ratio. What’s certain, is it’s not the same across the board. Not by a long shot. So by very definition, a non individualized training prescription is far from optimum.

This is the interesting part for me. Trying to work out my own unique training distribution.

So far, I’m barely scratching the surface. I have made a ton of observations, on hundreds of amateur riders. From that I noticed, most, if not all, are leaving a lot on the table. Myself included.

I’d be very interested in seeing others training breakdowns on what is working for them.

Mine seems to be this currently. It could change an hour from now. It’s what I do as ‘base’, basically all the time until quite near a race. I’ll then add in race specific intervals for no more than 3 weeks. Normally, just two weeks.

Monday - Full rest
Tuesday - 3hrs Z2, maybe a bit of tempo, sometimes a hard day
Wednesday - Same Z2 3hr, maybe a single sprint
Thursday - 3hrs Z2, maybe a very short 10min tempo/threshold effort
Friday - Same, but possibly on the trainer
Sat - 4hr hard group ride, all zones, max effort on a chosen duration
Sunday - 3/4hr easy Z1/Z2

16-20hrs a week
800-1000 TSS
One hard day, sometimes 2.
46y Male
60-62kg
4.2 w/kg ish FTP (if there’s even such a thing)
Sprinter phenotype
6 year training history
690hrs riding in 2020
MTB and Road Racing

This load seems to be providing me with semi continued progression. Obviously, that will end soon. At that point, I’ll change it.

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I read half of this post, but I am still confused on how a polarized approach is fit into the base phase? Surely doing VO2/Anaerobic intervals 2 or 3 times a week in the base phase (3-4+ months away from race) is too much intensity. Do you just skip the Z3 (Seiler) and stick to only Z1(Seiler) with some “stuff” (tempo/SS)? If so, that is not polarized. Wondering for a non-time crunched cyclist.

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for inspiration (from Solli et al 2019):

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Thanks for sharing. To reinforce that point, here is an interesting comparison between my first full season (322 hours) on a road bike and last full season (310 hours), using a HR view:

Same Friel zones as used by Intervals.icu and simplified into 3 zones:

  • low: z1+z2
  • medium: z3+z4 (well, z4 is actually 150-158bpm so not quite all z4)
  • high: z5+ (and some z4)

and the detailed view, same as Intervals but turned 90 degrees:

Like many others, your HR for z1+z2 power is a LOT lower than mine.

Well looking at 16-17 season thru that lens its no wonder my season was interrupted by so many unplanned recovery days!

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One confounding factor for me is that I am capable of pushing to much higher HRs in outside rides than I am inside. Particularly, in races when I am fully motivated I see heart rates I am incapable of touching elsewhere. This may confuse some of the max HR algorithms.

That said - I’ve been doing a significant amount of time at 55% of FTP in recent weeks and my HR there is remarkably consistent - I can chill at 200 watts and 104 BPM for hours and hours apparently.

Here is some of the data from last year (no racing)

All that base resulted in some pretty dramatic increases in my power:HR relationship compared to prior years, but you can see that things got a little wobbly at the higher end since I didn’t collect a ton of data there and didn’t spend a lot of time working on that

image

Honestly, I’m amazed at how hard so many people are working in a ton of these posts. So much intensity. It’s amazing they aren’t burning out faster and more often

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I definitely have a lower HR on inside z2 workouts than on outside z2 workouts.

What has been most surprising is how the shift to doing more z2 work has improved my 2-20 minute power bests. Here is a custom chart I made in WKO, showing all my power bests since starting structured training with TR in December 2017:

In Fall 2019 I did TR traditional base (MV), experimented briefly with polarized Nov/Dec 2019, and then Feb 2020 got frustrated with SSB and switched to FasCat SSB (more z2, less intervals). Then hired one of their coaches in August. I haven’t done any real interval work (sweet spot / threshold) since June - my off-season is June-August. The training distribution shows pyramidal and not polarized, averaging something around 8 hours/week.

Well! It’s amazing, I see plenty of Master here doing during the winter 3x zwift A races per week and then doing 2x Vo2 intervals training per week. During the summer its not better, and they do all out group rides one after the others. They doesn’t to crack but they have the same level year over year.

I appreciate you posting your data. It is quite interesting when I compare what I have been doing.

I cant yet ride as frequently as you do. I find I need 2 days off the bike each week. Age 60 and riding for last 5 years.

In my recovery weeks I often drop a day or two of riding as I find I just feel fresher. I had 203 days of riding which translates into 250 fewer hours of riding then you did. My time in zones Z3 to Z7 totaled 110 to your 130 hours so most of your extra time compared to me is in the Z1 and Z2 riding. I dont race so this is just me out pushing myself most of the time. I dont ride with others very often. Total rides with others would of be likely 15% of my rides. Most of those would be in the Z2/Z3 areas.

Interesting to look at and see how others ride. I will increase time on the bike again this year. Likely better to push more Z2…

They’re masters, do you expect them to improve year after year??

Some people want to be strong enough to hang with the fast group and once there just want to ride with the fast group. Seems fine. Everyone doesn’t have to ‘progress’ constantly. Doing off seasons and rest weeks when everyone else is still getting to hammer is boring.

Well, it depends! There’s a lot of new Masters who start cycling a few years ago. I am talking about my age group 35-45… so still some potential to improve if you start cycling 3yr ago…

Yes, this is very true. Actually the only thing that really matter is to enjoy what you do🤘🏻

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I’m very curious on when they will re-introduce intensity into your training - even assuming no real racing, or at least limited racing, in 2021 I’m starting to feel like a heavier loading block will be appropriate for me sometime in late Q1, early Q2 of this year, and then back to some combination of base/polarized (depending on your definition of polarized)

I’m fairly convinced this is the new version of the always fatigued, never faster, group rider. As others have said - this is fine, not everyone is focused on improving performance. It is all they know.

Honestly having legitimate ride discipline and riding truly easy on easy days is incredibly hard for most people - took me years to learn it

Volume is incredibly personal and will change as you age and as you increase your years of cycling experience. I did 750 hours last year, but was pretty disciplined about 2:1 ratio on hard:easy weeks (zero intensity on easy weeks for me) and, while I was riding 6 days most weeks, I also was two hard days/week, and nearly everything else was Seiler Z1

I also find I benefit from a week entirely off the bike in the middle of the season as well as at least two weeks entirely off at the end.

Will be different for everyone, but it was a real game changer for me to switch from 3 to 2 intense days/week. My performance improved with the decrease

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It’s all about the timing :wink: and I think some solid intervals are in my near future.

I think they meant never faster compared to the athlete theirself (i.e. never improving)

How I interpreted it as well.

Most of the “summer zeros” I’ve encountered are people who got fat and lazy in the off-season.

ABT. Always be training.

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i agree… had commented on the video but i’ll comment again,
I think that pyramidal is the long term sustainable approach… Polarized has a place for use during vO2 max blocks when you need to really push hard a few times a week and balance it out with plenty of easy volume for maximal recovery…

for example:
4x8’ seiler seems like a vO2 workout to me… shrugs

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