LTHR for running is at 178. I don’t have one for cycling as the polarised plan is based on the ramp test. My legs failed quite quickly at the aero position.
Right there with you. I made it a little farther into the second interval but still felt destroyed. HR was around 95% of max.
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Even the weekly TSS progression seems wrong. Specifically the huge jump from week 2 to 3 seems like it could be an injury risk for some folks.
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Your ftp is from ramp test?
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Sorry, I will be a bit harsh, as I see a lot of people complaining that 2x16mn at FTP is not doable/crazy difficult (and the failure rate on Miller Peak shows it really is a lot). If it is the case, you either have a medical condition, or your FTP setting is wrong. I would first consider the later as having the highest probability… It is as simple as this. It has nothing to do with bad plan or progression (If you go directly to 30mn intervals or cumulated time over 50mn then it could be the issue, but not the case here).
I found myself guilty of overthinking my failures on longer threshold and O/U workouts, like a lot of people here (sleep? fueling? Maybe I am just bad at it?). I wanted progression with some 6 then 8 then 10 then 12 mn intervals. To mask the painful truth: my FTP was not 245W. It was 235W. Period. The longer intervals don’t allow you to mask this with some gutting out in the last 2-3mn of the interval. Everything collapses in the 2nd interval… Folks, face the truth. Your FTP is set too high… 
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I really don’t believe the issue is where my FTP is set. If it was, I would also have a problem completing the other intensity workouts, yet I’m able to do them exactly as prescribed. Sure, FTP is supposed to be your “hour power” but almost no one can do it for an hour. Riding at FTP for an extended period takes specific training. They’ve said it on the podcast countless times. If a lot of people are complaining about it, its likely not because they all just happen to have their FTP set too high. I JUST did a ramp test a couple weeks ago. I’d argue that if these are so easy for you then its you who has their FTP set wrong.
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Yes, a couple weeks ago.
Maybe the ramp test is a bad protocol for determining FTP.
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Just asking. Do not want to post another statement that ramp test is bad protocol for estimating FTP for some (or many) people. Yes - it is very convenient but not good at its job:)
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Extended period of time for ftp is not 16mn… more like 35mn+. The fact that you are able to perform fairly well at the higher intensity is irrelevant. Depending on your physiology, they might suit you better and allow you to do the intervals higher than the arbitrary 120% of ftp. Ramp test might overestimate your ftp exactly because of this, see the relevant thread.
But I reiterate: best indicator of performance is performance itself. You are not able to sustain 16mn at ftp and your reaction is “I don’t think the problem is ftp setting”. In other words, you put a ftp setting, at which you are not able to perform longish steady state intervals, without your hr raising slowly to its max and without the quick lactate buildup after few minutes in the interval which is the definition of ftp (and not the hour power). My conclusion: your ftp setting is too high. Not much, probably 3-4%. But still too high. Just fact.
I never said it was easy. It is hard work. But I can complete the 2x16mn without issue. I will find out on the 5x16mn if it is correctly set. But I know what 40mn+ intervals feel like at FTP. And I am fairly confident the feeling I had during the 2x16mn at the end was where I needed to be for the intend of the workout.
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Yup. I use the ramp test but not as designed: I never go to failure and rarely further than one or two ramp above threshold. I use it to pinpoint the ramp increase from which I go from under threshold to above threshold. And I set my FTP accordingly. It might need some adjustments with the first workouts, as the step are quite big but it is not an issue.
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I can do sweet spot 2x20 at 94% just fine.
Like it’s just fine because it’s still at the point where you can manage things? Hmmm…
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Educated guess: you are indeed doing threshold 97%-98%, not sweetspot
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If you can’t do 2x16m FTP intervals… 1,000,000% YOUR FTP IS SET WRONG.
YOUR FTP IS SET WRONG.
Say it again.
This could be a song.
A vast, not all, but a vast majority of people have an optimistically set FTP. Particularly, if it is based on a ramp test. A significant portion of people over test with this protocol.
It really is VERY simple, just ride your very best power for 40 to 70mins. That is probably your FTP, or very close. All these other hack protocols are exactly that, hacks.
This is based on the proviso that you believe FTP equates to approx MLSS.
It’s relatively amusing to be fair. Folks be buying 10K bikes, paying subscription fees to training programs, building the ultimate training pain cave but, they can’t do a damn one hour effort…
Not much chance of becoming a fantastic cyclist if you can’t do a one hour effort. You’re certainly not winning any truly significant bike races.
If you can’t do 2x16mins. Just quit now, save yourself the struggle.
(PS. This is humor, or an attempt at it. Please don’t freak out… Your FTP is still wrong.)
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2 x 16min @ FTP should be achievable with a correctly set FTP. I’d highly recommend reading the Kolie Moore thread to get a flavour of what riding at FTP should feel like.
100% agree with other comments, if you can’t do 2 x 16 then you need to reduce your power until you can complete then and then consider reducing your FTP.
If I were to approach 2 x 16 @ FTP, I would use my LTHR+RPE to guide me through the efforts. First interval I might aim to be a beat or two below LTHR. By the end I might be on LTHR or a beat or two above. I might try nudging up intensity to see how it feels. If it’s sustainable, leave it, if it’s not, dial it back down.
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I wish the low volume plan limited weekday rides to max. an hour (though this is an issue not specific to the POL plans, but a lot of the other ones too, leading me to self-plan on TR loosely based on the existing plans).
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+1000 to this
I really think it comes down to semantics. Most people equate their TrainerRoad ramp test to LT2. While it may be close for some, its not as close for others. The guys at TR made these workouts based on what your TR FTP is. Do I think my TR FTP is the same as my LT2? No! I actually know for a fact it isn’t because I also did a blood lactate test a few days before my last ramp test and my LT2 was 233. My ramp test gave me a FTP of 251. Should I be doing all my workouts 7% lower than they are? No.
Your ability to a certain percentage for a certain amount of time based off that FTP isn’t universal. That doesn’t mean if you can’t do a certain workload for a certain amount of time that your FTP is wrong(especially if its somewhat close). It means that energy system isn’t trained or developed yet. This is EXACTLY why TR developed progression levels and adaptive training.
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But TR never said they build workouts based on ramp test result. Some workouts were created earlier than ramp test, and were never adjusted.
Trainerroad build WO and training plans based on the widely accepted assumption that FTP is a proxy for MLSS. After, they came with ramp test as a way to assess this FTP with a 75% of last minute ramp test power based on the bell curve coming out of the data they had. They never stated their FTP is different than the one you test for 20mn or the long real 40mn+ test. Never. They said that in general it is very close. For you, it is 17 watts. Huge difference!
Definetely yes. Sweetspot, Threshold and over/under. Maybe not VO2max
Yeah in the end it will reduce your power level to sweet spot instead of threshold or reduce intervals to below 12mn, where your anaerobic contributiuon helps you finish the interval. After a few weeks, you might see some progress on FTPand will be able to go 20mn long. But it doesn’t change that the first workout were not performed at threshold, but at superthreshold. Which makes me wonder if a lot of people are feeding the ML with inflated FTP, the athlete with correct FTP setting will get some weird results out of that. Everybody was shocked when the “updated plans for AT” leaked. Interval power levels for sweet spot way down in the range of high tempo, shorter intervals etc. I am not suprised, it is just the logical consequence of having so many people crushed by sweet spot which is indeed threshold…
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