Good, that only means the specs on their web site are incomplete. Better that than the opposite (features listed in the spec that don’t exist in the product).
Thanks, I guess I need a little time adapting vs my expectations. I’m already getting better at it. I’ll try the breaks next time.
I’ll second the comment on the ride feel. I used to have a Daum Ergobike TRS8008 and I like the Truebike’s feel a lot better. I have no experience with other systems though.
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If you put the bike in “Spin” mode, you will get an idea of how a regular trainer feels like.
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I had an old Bianchi Volpe that needed new brakes, wheels and front mech. I looked at the Kickr Core and went “hmmmm”.
I don’t find the Neo to feel anything like what you describe. It feels just as good as my road bike.
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The interesting points of the review:
- With all the hoopla about how “realistic” the trainer is supposed to be, there was no notable “feel” difference;
- The ERG mode instability issues were already seen by users earlier in this thread.
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I do recognize some points of the review. It does make more noise than a Wahoo or a Tax Neo. Although the room is never silent anyway with all the fans blowing. I can still watch a movie just fine or listen to music with earphones in.
I don’t think Ray did justice to the ride feel though. It is one of those things that you almost don’t notice until you try out both trainers side by side, it is not like other good trainers feel terrible. The difference is subtle but once you notice it, it is very clear. When you push hard on the pedals of the TrueBike, the pedals just don’t accelerate as fast as they do on a regular trainer. That feels nicer, it is like the pedals are pushing back harder.
As for the ERG instability, I don’t see it. Take for example this workout: Log In to TrainerRoad
On the intervals set to 270W, I see fluctuations with max of plus or minus 20W. That is totally acceptable. Just like with other trainers, if the cadence moves around there will also be more variations in power.
But do you have the bike in so-called Spin mode for that ERG ride (as you mentioned above)? I’ve gotta believe so, because honestly, even with perfectly stable cadence, I’ve yet to see any ride that looks like that.
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This is ERG mode, so the TR app is controlling the bike. Are you seeing that the power data from the bike is moving around too much or is the data from power pedals? Mine are from the bike and I think it is a 3s avg, maybe that is the difference?
Data from the bike moves around too much. I’m not using any smoothing, as that would effectively ‘hide’ the issue. The problem is that your body is basically doing intervals at +/- 50-60w than you should be, which is not ideal, but especially in shorter workouts.
I guess the challenge may be that I just don’t see it. But if I put it side by side with a KICKR Bike or a KICKR, or anything else, the so-called road-feel differences just aren’t there. And in some cases - especially accelerations, I’d argue the TrueBike isn’t as smooth there, perhaps overcompensating slightly.
I think part of the issue though is that much of the discussion around feeling on the TrueBike is comparing it to basically trainers of yesteryear - wheel-on trainers and such. Not comparing it to its actual competitors: The KICKR Bike/Tacx Bike/etc…
I had a really long chat with them yesterday after the review about the ERG mode bit, and it was interesting, because it took a while for them to understand the perspective, which is simple: In ERG mode should hold the power I specify. That’s the ‘you have one job’ moment for ERG mode.
Whereas their perspective was coming at it from more of a ‘how do we mimic the outside ride aspects of human leg variability’. Which, is totally cool in SIM mode (e.g. what Zwift normally uses). 100% cool. But in ERG mode, that’s not the point. The point is hyper-specifity to a given level. Else, it’s just far too variable as I showed.
They noted that they have the so-called SPIN mode in the menus you can enable, which essentially removes most of the inertia weight, and thus, would snap the intervals back to where we’d expect, but that trades out the inertial feel.
They’re going to think about it. The good news is this sounds mostly like a software tweak, but one backed by some of their foundational thinking on how they want the bike to be. It sounds like I’m not the only one that has pointed this out, but it also sounds like they weren’t really fully understanding the ‘ERG mode has one purpose’ line of thinking until our chat.
Either way - good to have the long discussion with them, and good to see they’re willing to discuss changes.
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I believe the bike is always transmitting a 3s average, so there is no choice. Had asked them about it and they pointed to the Pro bike that is much more expensive for that “functionality”…
On the ride feel, I only have the Wahoo Kickr to compare. The Kickr feels super smooth compared to old wheel on trainers, but with the TrueBike it feels to me like the pedals are pushing back much more.
I assume the erg mode “volatility” is not hard to solve. It’s a pretty simple systems engineering problem. You have a mostly constant demand signal, and some variability in the power signal with predictable variation frequency (2x cadence), a simple PI control loop can handle it (with the proportional term helping with power steps). The motor’s characteristics are known, the only unknown is the particular rider’s smoothness or lack thereof.
I’m with Ray, I assume the problem starts from the wrong expectations being put into the control parameters. If one starts with “on the road riders vary +/- 20% on a power target” and design your erg mode to do that, well, that’s what you will get…
The Kurt Kinetic is the Thomson seatpost of turbo trainers. In terms of the kinetic energy stored in the flywheel, its by my calculation about 300 J in normal, and then about 800 J with the heavy flywheel. In comparison, a 70kg rider and bike at 32kph have about 2800 J.
In terms of accuracy, I cannot tell any difference between the Kurt and my Inpower cranks.
yup, you must not forget to take the square of the speed to get the kinetic energy .
I had the heavy flywheel on the Kinetic, but when I switched to a Wahoo trainer it just rides so much nicer, no math needed although that is always good fun.
They are certainly very much in development and I have also made a few suggestions, like for the interface. It is nice that they are willing to listen and take it into future developments.
When I tested the bike on site and had the bike in ERG mode, I remember the person standing next to me explaining proudly how gradually the power was transitioning to the set power number. I didn’t think much of it at the time, but this would be in line with the position you described where they want to make ERG as realistic as possible rather than make the power as constant as possible.
For great feel, the Schwinn carbon blue is pretty awesome. Its got a massive flywheel, belt drive for low maintenance, and you can whack on some power pedals.
A really noticeable design feature of the carbon blue (we have one, I bought it for my wife) is that its one sturdy piece of kit. There will be no breaking the frame.
Schwinn have been making these things since year dot. So they have been through the Weibull bath tub.
Pedro, have you already experimented with the new ‘responsiveness’ setting? I’ve hardly ridden indoors lately so I have only tested it once at 25%. I was wondering if you had already tested at the different levels and if you had an opinion on them?