Minimum Time Needed To Make Polarized Better Than SS

Matthew_Taylor · June 4, 2020, 8:41am

Surely MV with supplemental Z2 is as tough if not tougher. It has more intensity and HV still has the two days of Aerobic Endurance. Thoughts?

Matthew_Taylor · June 4, 2020, 8:48am

For sure Build can be crushing compared to SSB. I’ve tried to get as much volume as possible during SSB to prep for build, as my last build phase (only done one as I’m a bit of a cycling newb) destroyed me. Threshold sucks for me just now. Not only because it’s tough, but my gearing whilst on the dumb trainer means, I’m either at 98rpm, or I change up a gear and sit at 82rpm. Neither are a natural cadence for me

Alex_Fastfitnesstips · June 4, 2020, 9:54am

Hi Matthew
You ask a fair question which is tricky to answer in one sentance because there are some important sub-questions in there. First is the question is POL better than SS? It is an ongoing debate, and no doubt any consistent training is better than none but on a like-for-like basis I reviewed the evidence for SS here (Sweetspot or Sourspot?. Is sweetspot really the best training… | by Alex Fastfitness | Fastfitnesstips | Medium) but I also reviewed the evidence for POL on my youtube channel (Which is best: HIIT vs Threshold vs Polarized vs Base Training: the science - YouTube) as well as other training methods (eg HIIT The Magic of Interval Training. Just how good is high Intensity… | by Alex Fastfitness | Fastfitnesstips | Medium). The bottom line is the majority (but not all) of the science favours polarized training (in an RCT) but its doesn’t work for everyone all of the time. Indeed it is a simplification to just prescribe one style of TID indefinately; rather it should be personalized based on hours / phase of season / training objectives. That’s what our calculator works out for you (FFT periodization planner [fft.tips/tpp3] - Google Sheets) as shown in this screenshot

. Next is the question of whether there is a threshold for a superior effect of POL? Well in the above evidence review I do note a number of studies that found superiority of POL in beginners training relatively low hours. To be fair some studies show the same for HIIT training in beginners. In our calculator if you increase or decrease the hours there is an effect on the monthly TIZ but its fairly subtle and not a categorical switch at say 10 hours, its on a continuum alongside other factors. There is obviously tremendous debate on here and elsewhere about what is the optimal training style…I am not here to tell anyone what to do, it is up to them, indeed I would say the best method for anyone is the method that A. you believe will work for you B. you are motivated to follow. Those two factors will outweight almost everything else. bw Alex

Matthew_Taylor · June 4, 2020, 10:08am

Thanks for the informative post @Alex_Fastfitnesstips. I’ll have a good ready through the links and I’m sure this will give me a more informed decision.

Matthew_Taylor · June 4, 2020, 10:34am

Thanks for the heads up. I’m aware of who Alex is, not meant in a bad way.

deepakvrao · June 4, 2020, 10:42am

I see that lots of sites say that for polarised, low intensity should be at 70% f Max HR. My max HR is 186, LTHR is 169. So, 70% is 130 for me. But my Z2 for HR goes upto 150. Which should I be following? This seems to say that upto 150 is OK?

brendanhousler · June 4, 2020, 10:49am

ride your bike
work on your weaknesses
strengthen the race specific strengths
slay all comers.
use both sweet spot and the gems from polarization.
the biggest issue with polarized is that even Seiler states that the three zone model is used to start so that athletes don’t always go too hard, but then we could “graduate” to a 5 zone model.

I made this video that may interest you re: both camps: Sweet Spot or Polarized Cycling Training Plan? - YouTube

matteo · June 4, 2020, 10:56am

Have come to realize that my volume of Z2 ie 60% 75% of FTP goes way up when I ride outside vs indoor structure since I always steal more time until I decide to head home… Not sure if that is the reason it seems like Im getting weaker over the past couple months that I actually was more compliant to the TR plans, build phase in this case…

Matthew_Taylor · June 4, 2020, 10:57am

I’ll check out the link. Thanks.

critpig · June 4, 2020, 11:01am

HR up to 152 sounds high considering your LT, would stick to the lower end of that. Do you use power also? Where does z2 power sit you for HR?

deepakvrao · June 4, 2020, 11:07am

Well, today my HR was completely Z2, with an avg of 144, and my power was almost equally divided between z2 and z3, with a small amount in z4.

By Joe Friels book,if my LTHR is 169, my z3 HR starts at 151.

Is it better to pace this with power than HR?

DarthShivious · June 4, 2020, 5:56pm

FWIW, FasCat (Frank O) has a polarized plan up on site. He shows the first three weeks which is basically VO2 Wednesday, SST Thursday and two long rides Saturday and Sunday adding up to 9-11 hours a week.

That is a pretty good structure and one can see easily how to progressively increase TIZ.

If thinking TR, you can quickly crib the Tu-W-Th workouts then add long Z2 on Sun and Sat and easily come up with a polarized plan of 8-12 hours.

More time you ride extra Z2 after the weekday rides or add time Mon and Fri

Did a mock plan and came up with structure 10-16 hours that looked pretty good on paper.

It’s worth a shot

bbarrera · June 4, 2020, 6:03pm

that is FasCat SSB 4 plan, it looks more like a TR build plan as it progresses from 3-min vo2max to 5-min vo2max, and then some longer above FTP threshold intervals. Like all his plans its easy to execute outside. I’m on week one.

bbarrera · June 4, 2020, 6:41pm

Frank commented on the forums its “for those days TSS is not a priority” and in addition there is no prescribed TSS to prevent people from chasing TSS and CTL. Because of life I’ve done both week 1 “z2 by heart rate” days (60 and 120 minutes) as it was 88F on Monday and 100F/38C last night. Need a little more time heat acclimating before doing hard intervals in 88F heat! Focused on breathing and RPE, slow rolled them and after the IF was hovering around .55 until very end when I have to deal with a traffic situation (a short hard <30-sec effort pushed both to 0.6 IF).

DarthShivious · June 4, 2020, 6:42pm

Honestly, I saw that use of Polarized from Frank and thought it was good marketing. Regardless, the twice a week hard and the rest Z2 is pretty good in my book.

Brian, how is the Wed + Thurs back to back working out? I often feel good day after VO2 and less good two days later. Have thought about doing a Tues+Wed instead or tues and thurs. plus extra rest before weekend fun.

For time, I think if we call polarized twice a week hard and rest Z2, it’s good anything over about 7-8 hours.

bbarrera · June 4, 2020, 6:49pm

For Wed+Thur back-to-back I can only comment on SSB1-3. Started with SSB2 in February, and by early March it felt like I had regained most of my 2017 legs (pre double century). Not fully back to 2017, but a lot closer than doing threshold heavy SSB in 2018 and 2019.

What I mean by that, is that as a masters 55+ rider the pyramidal approach made it easy to churn out TSS heavy rides and weeks like this:

without any heavy fatigue (weeks 10-11 in the 18-week plan). Sure I’ve got the usual spring allergies (and work stress) that conspire to interfere with consistency, but I haven’t felt this good and this strong in years.

stonerider · June 4, 2020, 6:56pm

Just curious, how old are you?

stonerider · June 4, 2020, 7:00pm

Yep, you’re in the prime of your life. Just wait until you are 52 years old and try the same training you are doing now.

bbarrera · June 4, 2020, 7:02pm

I was able to do SSB-1 HV at 55 but that was coming off a really strong base built on a May 2017 double century. However with that much hard work in SSB HV, I wasn’t left with a lot of motivation and Feb 2018 just started riding outside and dabbling in TR plans.

bbarrera · June 4, 2020, 7:04pm

lol my adult life has been a game of “stress whack a mole”