Losing faith with new TR plans

With SaaS products & services like TR, us customers enjoy the undoubted benefit of frequent (near constant) improvements being deployed, but at the same time should a change come along that happens to irk us personally it can really grind your gears…

This happens to me all the time with most products I use, making me curse some aspect or other of the new “improved” version that somehow has managed to p!ss me off. Usually what happens is that in a few days/weeks/months time I’ve either adjusted to it or otherwise completely forgotten about the irksome aspect, and if ever I catch a screenshot of the old version it’ll seem like something out of the Ark. :smiley:

Having observed this pattern repeating over the years I’ve somewhat learned to choose my “wave the pitchforks” moments quite carefully, and will generally choose to go with the flow for a while and give the new version a whirl for a decent period of time in order to see how it goes as I become accustomed to it.

However, sometimes product designers do really screw things up (from my own perspective), heading off in a direction that doesn’t suit me, and if so then once I’ve recognised that I’ll then cast around for a better alternative. As mentioned above, that’s the power we yield as consumers and that’s why most outfits work their socks off trying to keep as many of us punters as happy as they can (& our custom retained), even if it’s not always possible to do this for everyone, every time.

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I remember there was some outcry (and some rejoicing) when Mary Austen was changed to the -1 version in SSBMV2 :wink:

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Where do you find your levels

Best application of this meme. Ever.

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Gotcha, I’ll start messing with it once I’m done with this training block
Thanks

This seems risky. I may be extra fresh today so I notch up the intensity but this has impacts down stream where I am unable to complete future rides.

This is one example of how the “Cool Kids with AT” say don’t worry AT is coming to the many of us without AT. (Quote below is from the New Plan Announcement Thread)

Now for a personal example of the TrainNow feature weirdness. This past Sunday I was RX to do a SS 3.1 but thought what happens if I didn’t want to do that specific workout. When I went to TrainNow it started dishing up SS 7+ workouts because I just did a ramp and the week prior completed a SS 11.x

I am planning to follow my current plan but something seems strange when you have two extremely opposing options.

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That’s not true. The revamped plans are based on part of the tech that enables AT, namely algorithms that quantify how hard workouts are; those are your workout levels. The old plans ramped up TSS whereas the new plans ramp up the workout level as determined by these new algorithms.

AT does two things: it scores your skill level and then assigns workouts of a difficulty for a given energy system depending on your skill level. So in that sense the new plans are made in anticipation of Adaptive Training. I reckon the workout level progression (in absolute terms) is chosen what TR considers apt for the average TR user.

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Has anyone here ever played a competitive FPS, MMO, or fighting game? Endless debates about buffs and nerfs to various classes or weapons/spells dominate message boards. Zwift doesn’t have the edge in video gaming-ing cycling, apparently TR does with the levels buff and legacy plan nerf.
If I squinted I’d have a hard time thinking I wasn’t on gamefaqs or something.
This entire situation is like patch 4.19 and changes the meta. Only now it’s not your lvl 100 Druid but your ftp progression that’s altered…

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The problem is that the plans are not easier in the right way IMO, especially the build plans. The issue that many raised with TR was too much total fatigue- i.e. too many days working Z2/3 in a 3 zone model, which builds chronic fatigue that can lead to burnout and over training. The workouts themselves were very good- challenging, working the right energy systems, and relevant to the outcome of the plan.

TR went and solved the wrong problem by making the workouts easier and less specific. Really all they needed to do was make the endurance rides easier and drop one of the workouts and/or replace the sunday SS ride with an endurance ride. Maybe in a few cases, switch out the workouts to one with fewer intervals or longer recoveries where there was a big jump in progression. Instead, we have the same number of intensity days which are easier and often don’t work the right zones! For example, how can you have a sustained power build plan without long threshold intervals? Or a TT specialty plan without long efforts near FTP? Maybe AT helps with harder workouts, but it doesn’t fix the lack of specificity in the plans.

Interestingly, the only plans I like the looks of are the LV and MV SSB plans. They’re not enough in and of themselves, but with swapping in some longer SS intervals, they touch all energy systems and provide more stress than the build plans. But I do appreciate the workouts that TR added so that I can go make my own training plan, which TBH I usually end up modifying anyways.

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I understand what you are trying to say but nerf/buff is not the same. That would be like saying we found our SuPB > ShPB so we reduced the quality of SuPB to try and equalize things which isn’t the goal. The goal is to have all plans be as effective as possible

I still think this is non-sense. IMHO a lot of the issues was people choosing a plan that was too difficult for them to maintain and/or not adapting their FTP, because they (like most) are not average when it comes to FTP-as-percentage-of-MAP. The previous MV plans were quite easy — provided you make sure to sleep enough and adjust your nutrition. The more you up the volume, the more you need to have all your ducks in a row.

Capital-P Polarized plans are less fatiguing, yes, but at a give time commitment they also make you do less work in your higher energy systems.

I don’t want to re-litigate all of this, but the previous-previous plans did have Z2 rides on Sunday (as mentioned in the weekly tips), but people didn’t do them. Since consistency, i. e. sticking to a workout schedule, trumps types of workouts here, they substituted sweet spot workouts.

In the new base plans the Sunday workouts are the easiest proper workouts, and I am sure for that reason.

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Yes. I get that the levels came out of AT. And that they used this new info to help create the new plans. But the new plans work fine without AT. And these new plans are actually an improvement on the old plans per TR. Just because they use some of the ML behind AT does not mean you need to be on AT for the plans.

At this point I think I’ve lost track of what the main argument was or is. I’m gonna check out and use TrainNow all summer anyways :sunglasses:

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I was just responding to your claim that the new plans are not tailored to AT — they are.

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They are tailored from AT. But not to AT.

I think this is where the confusion is coming in. AT is not needed to go through the new plan blocks at all. They will still be an improvement over the old plans per TR.

AT is going to make any plan better by tailoring the workout levels to individuals.

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The risk for me personally is that I push myself too hard today because I feel great so up the intensity +3% but then tomorrow feel it more than expected and have problems with the next workout having to bump it down or worse I push through and keep digging that hole. I can’t remember the Pod but Chad talks about the fact that if you knock a workout down 1% that is not a big deal but if you have to knock it down 5% you are getting outside the acceptable range for what is expected of that workout.

I was referring to the fact the the “New Plan” sans AT has riders doing 3ish but then I go to TrainNow and it uses my mystical PLs to spit out rides it thinks I should be doing instead that are 4-5 levels up above the original prescription. So is TrainNow trying to potentially over challenge me or is the “New Plans” under training those without AT

I think that is where people are getting frustrated with the Roll Out of new plans when TR says ML/AT spit this out and we trust it but we can’t really tell you much more than please trust it and it will get adjusted when AT comes out in the future at an undesignated undefined goal date.

I currently just started a base phase since Canada doesn’t seem to know what its doing right now. The Build phase looks like it will ramp things up again for me which is nice to see.

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I was included in the AT closed beta earlier this week. I want to add some more thoughts to my posts earlier.

New Plans vs TrainNow

Prior to being included into AT, TrainNow was giving me workouts with levels that were different to the New Plans. For example, I was getting Sweetspot Level 6-7 in TrainNow vs Level 4 in the new SSB MV plans. After letting AT adapt all my upcoming workouts, all of the sudden all sweetspot workouts in my plan were Level 6+. Therefore, I can tenatively confirm that TrainNow is not overchallenging you by prescribing higher level workouts. It’s actually using your real progression levels.

Are the New Plans under-training those without AT? Potentially, especially if you are already stronger than the prescribed level. This is what I feel is what a lot of people on this thread are experiencing. I was one of them so I can empathise.

The New Plans start at a progression level that TR has researched to be achievable by the majority of athletes. Yes, the New Plans need AT to become a complete product, however, that does not mean that the New Plans can’t be executed as they are now. In my opinion, if someone executed the New Plans to 100% compliance versus 70% compliance on the old plans, then that athlete is better off.

The solution? The temporary solution as mentioned earlier in the thread is to look at your TrainNow level and then pick a workout from the library of similar level which resembles that of the original workout you are trying to ‘manually adapt’. It sucks, yes for sure, but it’s only temporary.

TrainNow

I also want to point out that TrainNow is not just suggesting workouts that are ‘achievable’ which may have given the notion that TrainNow was good for maintenance. It’s actually suggesting workouts that are ‘productive’ so in essence it’s giving you workouts that may improve on your current progression levels. Maybe you could even use TrainNow in lieu of a plan?

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I don’t think it is confusion on my end. I’m still maintaining that the structure of these plans have been designed in anticipation of AT, i. e. these plans are the baseline from which AT adapts the plans to the athlete. And because they are the baseline, I think it is valid to say they have been designed for AT.

But it is these plans that AT is supposed to start with (as per the official TR statement that you quoted).

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Not sure why this assumption that the new plans are gimped and only built for AT to adapt, persist.

TR have already said they’re made to be the best they can be without AT, and are meant to replace the old plans.

It also doesn’t make any sense to have plans that don’t work without adjustment.

Think about it, why create plans that will need adjusting rather than having the best plans possible? It seems like TR have looked at their ‘Bell Curve’ with the vast amounts of data that they hold, and have determined the best progression and difficulty levels for maximum gains.

Which makes more sense?
A) Have the best plans by default, and then AT can tweak UP or DOWN according to user’s survey data?

B) Have a nerfed plan, then have AT customise it mostly UP but also DOWN according to user’s survey data?

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I have not lost faith in the new plans. I don’t yet have confidence in them and AT. That is an entirely different situation

I do wonder how large the slient community of “These plans are fine - I don’t find them too hard, and if they are hard I apply rule 5.” was? I was certainly a member. I used the LV and MV plans and added extra outside workouts. they worked for me.

The big recent piece for me was seeing how the old plans had roughly a progression of 0.4 to 0.5 in level of a workout from week to week. Mostly I did those. If I had a bad (did not hit the workout fully) session I would go back and repeat it a few days or a week later so I cracked it, and felt I could move on. If that pushed a week so be it.

The catch I have is that the new plans are plans, until AT changes them for you… Assuming AT applies, which means you have to have created your plan using plan Builder and not moved things around. That is very limiting, even when AT eventually gets wider release.

I am struggling to find a suitable plan for my events and race plans (Long Time Trials) and where I am. Plan Builder is not helping. So am resorting to picking a LV one from the Training plans and adding to that, as I have done in previous years.

I have a minor question: Why is Chad Timmerman so quiet recently? I trust him and his plan design. he seems to have taken a massive back step.

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I remember hearing on the podcast or seeing on Instagram that Coach Chad had moved to Washington and that Nate had bought Coach Chad’s house for himself and that Coach Chad had a sweet man cave in what is now Nate’s house.

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