I had been a TR subscriber in the past but did not renew at a point. I did not use their plans and at that time the software was not really top notch anymore. Don’t know if this has changed …
I try to do my interval work outdoors. I choose the climb according to what I want to train. This week I wanted to do threshold intervals:
The length of the climb and number of repetitions dictates intensity. Of course, you have to know what you can pedal for this duration. But this is something experience tells.
Indoors I do my intervals in slope mode, never in erg mode. 1min zone5, 3min sst (or so) for example. Actual wattage will simply ensue:
Just for comparison sake, my MLSS from a lactate steady state test is at best 80% of my 6 minute power, which should be right in the middle of the gaussian distribution if we believe the median +/- 1SD is 75-85%. However the ramp test’s 75% of PPO would put FTP at 84% of the 6 minute power. I believe since the steps are percentage based, that this will mostly hold true as long as the previous FTP setting was relatively close. So this is overestimating my MLSS by at least 14 watts, but I can hold the ramp test estimate for just barely over 30 minutes. I was curious if I was someone that just had a low TTE, but it was because lactate was creeping up and that was causing failure.
So my MLSS is right near the same exact % of PPO that my 1 hour power is. As I said before, I’m someone who is right around median level for fractional utilization, so even though I’m an N= 1 example, I have a lot in common with many other cyclists out there. (which happens to be right around 4mmol as well)
By too slow, it was like 12 miles per hour. It was just ridiculous to ride around that slow. That block was around 10-12 hours per week with one day per week of intensity in the form of a 2 hour group ride.
I had huge gains that block. My 125bpm riding around went up to around 18mph, my FTP went up by 20 points and I was breaking all my Strava PRs on the group ride by week 8.
Similar experience here with regard to using ~65% as a ballpark LT1 metric. For me to maintain a heart rate below 130 (195 max) required insane discipline and the riding become unenjoyable. So I tried something different.
I’ve since settled on 72-75% as a better estimate which allows me to actually pedal the bike with some force. This usually puts me in the 142-146 BPM range which I like. Is it my true LT1? I don’t know, and I’m not really bothered by whether or not it is. But, I know I’m likely close enough in that I can ride at this pace all day with relative ease, but I still feel a sense of fatigue on rides longer than 2 hours.
This was a base block in the winter two years ago which is why I was only doing one day with intensity. The other reason was that I had been battling bouncing in and out of fatigue. I’d do some hard efforts and then be trashed for 2-3 days. I’d do a hard group ride and again be exhausted for 2-3 days.
I was trying to do a low intensity Seiler style base block to get out of this rut. It really really worked. All the low intensity work made me much more bulletproof. After the block I was no longer so exhausted after group rides or intervals. It definitely gave me that low intensity durability that Seiler talks about in the video
That said, to me 80% of HRmax sounds kind of high. I don’t think most riders would still be in the green zone. For me that would be tempo/SS and that is definitely not green zone.
Despite what the chart above shows, Seiler didn’t talk about the percentages in the video so maybe we shouldn’t read too much into it? I mean, he went past that chart really quickly. With his mouse, he pointed to the middle of the green zone not to the furthest right edge of Z1/2.
I think ‘keep your easy rides easy’ is what he says, along with the anecdote of the high level runner walking up the hill. This is where I always go wrong…
In chad’s spreadsheet he has 68-72% of hrmax bolded as the “low intensity bullseye” pretty sure im quoting verbatim. If you’ve been following the ism training model thread, this is a major distinction as seiler is saying to stay below lt1, but not just the top of lt1, but basically completely under. Staying well in that green zone is staying in z1 of the 5 zone hr model, but means staying below 70-72% of hrmax. So yes, lower than 80%, but not 60-65% ( but that’s where pettit lies for me, so that low has its place for sure. Call it regenerative endurance instead of recovery pace)
Re: HR zones… Seiler didn’t want to give out blank numbers for HR, because individual variations are so high. He doesn’t like giving a generic answer. For example lets look at 60 min power test, puts people at maybe an average of 88%. But drift of HR is tricky on 60 min power test. Hard to decide where in 60 min effort where to find MLSS. On indoor trainer, a low-intensity session should have flat heart rate. Coach said he ballparks LT1 at 83-85% of LT2. Seiler doesn’t like percentages of percentages, so he would go with HRmax and refer percentages to that. So then, based on that, LT1 is roughly 70% of HRmax and you shouldn’t go above 75%. And Seiler would put LT2 around 85-87% HRmax.
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So back then LT1 was ~70-75% HRmax. Now it’s ~73-79%.
Yeah, we’re mostly in agreement, 60-65% is lower than recommended. There’s a bit more nuance to discovering lt1 but it can be relatively high in some individuals.
Session duration matters, as does overall training volume.
a week with four 90-100 minute trainer sessions at 78-80% of HR peak might be effective aerobic training for some riders. It might be overcooking others.
a week with three 240 minute rides at 78-80% would crack just about any of us.
likewise, 3 240 minute sessions at 60-65% HR peak would be pretty good base building. 4 90 minute sessions at 60-65% HR peak probably wouldn’t do much, except for a novice.
This is not even close for me, personally. 85% of HRmax is like my 2-hour power. I haven’t gotten lab-tested, but based on TTE tests my LT2/LTHR is ~90-91% HRmax.
Honestly, I feel like I’m overthinking it when I routinely try abide by these percentages with regards to how I execute my training. Even with Seiler it’s routinely changing, and it’s very individual.
Here is what I have listed in my sheet with respect to the " Bullseyes". Note the section in bold in the 2nd bullet point.
High & Low Intensity Bullseyes
Refers to a spot in Z1 & Z3, that Dr. Seiler says is rewarding for the training time done there.
He calls them Low Intensity Sweet Spot & High Intensity Sweet Spot. He says these are not necessarily preferred spots for all riders, but could be good for some.
I chose “Bullseye” to identify the areas of interest (replacing “Sweet Spot” as used by Dr. Seiler in the podcasts) because “Sweet Spot” is already commonly used with the 7-Level Model.
That “Sweet Spot” term use leads to confusion between the training models, so I designated a unique term for the special areas in 3-Zone Model.
As mentioned, my info came from those first couple of FastTalk POL episodes, and is far from gospel. Not to mention the fact that I removed and re-added them more than once… I still wonder if it is worse to have them there than helpful?
Ya my LTHR for actual all-out one-hour efforts is 91-92% HRmax. TrainingPeaks makes it easy to see 90-min (but not 2 hour), and most of the top 10 are at 88% with the top 2 at 90%.
Given Seiler isn’t a coach, and didn’t want to recommend HR as guidelines, that he claimed cyclists train polarized, that his decoupling wasn’t even close to mine, and a few other reasons, it amazes me the amount of forum attention given to Seiler’s rough guidelines that come with the caveat (paraphrased) “I hesitate to give green/yellow/red zones by HR because individual variations are so high.”
So yes, a lot of overthinking. Go out and ride zone2. Adjust up or down based on your ability to recover. Pay attention to your ability to execute shorter all-out efforts and how your other riding impacts it.
Here’s my data based on the image you posted earlier in the thread. The VO2 utilization is based off of metabolic cart readings I’ve collected over the past 6 or so weeks. Yesterday I managed to record a portion of an outdoor ride on my metabolic cart and saw an average of 225watts, 3,700 ml/min VO2, and 0.99RER during 15 minutes of one of my intervals. If I was motivated, I likely would have hit RER=1.0 at a bit higher VO2.
