Never heard of it…
So far…
Self-coaching via large intervals.icu library (4 years of this, to reasonable success (zero to fastest 70.3 AG bike split)
Zwift plan
Xert
TrainerRoad
Humango
Join
I’m not doing it as research or a youtube video or anything, just to find what works best for me personally.
Just re-signed to TR to try that approach over the summer
Good luck!
Did you listen to their QA on YT today? There they claim that the workout scoring doesn’t consider time in zone, but rather time in prescribed power range.
Not only does the app scoring breakdown suggest the exact opposite, also my recent contact with the support (same person as in the QA video) confirmed that they would account for TiZ.
I really like the approach but it feels that they lost control over their app already.
I wouldn’t care too much about the scoring, but it’s just so frustrating that a bad score changes (or worse: removes) your upcoming workouts. This annoys me so much that every time that happens I want to cancel my sub. Why on earth would anyone remove a workout while training readyness is 80+%, if frequency and volume is so king?
Also these athletic profiles. It’s like they have no clue themselves about what exactly they are doing.
The plan projections, jumping back and forth between 12 and 4 weekly hours or so, every day that looks different.
Sorry for the rant, but that’s just so sad to see.
One can say many things about TR, but it’s 100% clear what works, how it works and what doesn’t work work.
Has anyone tried Garmin DSW? I keep watching it in parellel to Join. And when join again scratches my workout while I have time, readyness and it’s 25 degress and sunshine outside I just follow that. The workouts are very similar and I consider going full in with that to give it a proper try.
Didn’t listen, but I understand why you are frustrated. Haven’t used Join enough to comment.
I really don’t understand how you are getting poor scores on your workouts. I understand you’re saying there’s some kind of difference in the zones, but I just aim for the target (or if I’m outdoors and there’s a zone, the middle of the zone) and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a score below 7 or 8. What is causing the poor scores?
On reddit one of the other employees said they were looking into improving that. It might be that it just got implemented or they are about to implement it.
I used to like watching the program change my schedule and try to figure out what would change but the more I use join the less the workouts change unless I make a big change. One important thing is RPE, if you did a very though vo2max workout sandwiched between z2 RPE should reflect the entire. So like 20 minutes of rpe 9-10 vo2max sanwiched between 2 1 hours zone 2 should be rpe 4-6 not 8-10
Just cosmetics, a workout moving from Sunday to Monday could have a big impact on hours per week whereas total training volume stays the same
One big “mistake” I made was to chase the average power of the intervals, trying to keep them at the middle of the prescribed power range. That lead to many situations where e.g., inclination switched from steep to flat → average goes low → you overcompensate by a power north of the prescribed zone to readjust average interval power.
That approach somehow made sense to me, but of course if the Join scoring doesn’t care for average power but rather looks at time in zone (or time in prescribed power range, whatever the truth is here), that will lead to lower scores.
Once I stopped doing that and instead just tried to always keep 3s power in the middle of prescribed range, scoring got much better. I even got a ‘10’ last time. But Join still removed my next days training due to few TSS more than prescribed (but lower RPE and intensity than prescribed), even if I had no availability during the 2d after that.
What I meant by “some kind of difference in the zones”:
A workout might have tempo intervals with a prescribed power range of 235…265w
But if you look at the workout score details or the Join FAQ you see that “tempo” is defined with a different range, eg, 232…251w. You can spot this difference in most of their workouts. Others have noted that on Reddit and also asked about it in yesterdays QA.
One of those ranges they use for scroring, but they can’t agree on which one it is, which doesn’t help to comply.
Another thing which frustrates me I forget to mention: Join often refuses to utilize days with lower availablity (e.g. 45 or 60min) even if it has enough of such workouts in its library and that behavior leads to a negative weekly ramp rate, i.e., the opposite of getting faster. That also doesn’t fit their statement that frequecy and volume matters most, which is of course true.
Yeah, it really feels like Join just isn’t for you. I get it. You question the process. I kind of just tend to do what the plan says, which is how I got burnt out doing what I was doing before I went to Join. I hope you find the system that works well for you!
I will say that I’m struggling a bit right now because I’ve done the same LSRF plan multiple times (with good results), but I can’t figure out which plan to do next due to lack of transparency in what the plans contain. I’ve asked multiple times in multiple places and they just don’t respond, which is frustrating. As a result, I’m now tinkering and trying to build my own plan, which will probably lead to more burnout 
. I’ve learned a lot about what my body responds to from using Join though, I now know what I had been doing wrong the last few years, so hopefully I internalize that moving forward, even if it’s not in Join.
I feel the garmin watches (speaking for my Fenix 7) are quite good avoiding that. They look at load ratio, HRV, sleep etc.
I’d say if you follow whatever plan you like with the exception that whenever the watch recommends “rest” or “recovery ride” you listen to it, you might be safe.
I am saying that as someone who is extremely prone to overtrain due to overmotivation, impatience and the ability to push through discomfort.
Of course they are expensive and you’d need to wear them 24/7.
Btw, to say something good about Join: If you mail directly to support they answered me every time within 24h. Usefulness of the answers was mixed, though.
why don’t you just try a few weeks?
Then use TR, I really sounds like Join isn’t for you, we have all these different training apps, because we aren’t all the same, if you don’t get Join or it doesn’t work for you … trying to make the square plug fit into the round hole is just a waste of time and energy, that would be spent training, I tried Humango recently, bought a years subscription in the winter sale … that really doesn’t work for me, there os NO point in me trying to flog the dead horse
Because that’s a few weeks wasted in a base setting of lots of Z2 when I’m ready for build. If I then get a week of build and don’t like it, then it’s another 3 weeks on the next one. Thats 6 weeks ASSUMING I found the right one.
FTP and Stamina builder are sort of the base programs, LSRF, Short/Long Climbs/Sprint and winter maintenance are sort of the build programs. If you change plan you don’t start over with a build up phase but just continue where you left off at least from what I have tried and I switched a lot
Thanks for the advice. I found that when I switched off LSRF it wants to reduce both volume AND intensity in the first week. That is my concern. For now, I’ve switched and am just replacing Tuesday with VO2 and Saturday with Threshold, but if I continue to have to do that, I’m not sure I see the point in being on a plan.
Really? I was going to do FTP next assuming it was more of a build. I guess I will try LSRF or long climbs and then a custom 1-day event plan after. Also surprised winter maintenance is ‘build.’ I do agree with the critique that plan selection is a little unclear. Enjoying Join so far, but the proof will be in results this spring.
I am a bit in doubt but it’s very different from the other programs with a lot of intensity
I was really skeptical at first because the workouts are never really very hard, not like trainerroad but It has worked really well for me. (orange unstructured, pink 2 seasons of TR, purple last 84 day and using join now since September)
Yes. I’m complaining about the things I’d like to change, but I’ve seen really really good results from the LSRF plan and ensuring I add longer rides when possible, all while only taking a day or two off plan due to fatigue in several months (and that fatigue was my own fault, not the plans)