yeah, that other thread was a little harsh. Appreciate your participation and yes, sometimes no matter the care to clarify, not everyone is following the script. Thanks again.
I read those two responses and I’m like WTF are these guys talking about? Try to give an athlete some general encouragement that there might be ways for him to achieve his goals without spending so much time on it, and I’ve got two guys jumping down my throat and calling my coaching into question! 
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Do you watch Ted Lasso (Apple TV+)? Last night was episode 1 of season 3 - a classic on coach’s egos 
Sorry if it came across that I was putting words in your mouth, I was sincerely trying to figure out what you meant. I was a bit confused of your comparison between the 3K and VO2 intervals.
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Have I explained it better?
In my way of thinking: VO2max is training a set of physiological properties (e.g. stroke volume, in particular). A 3K would be training a performance metric - power for 3-5min or whatever time period.
In one case, I execute the interval a certain way to achieve a certain physiological response - maximal venous return from the legs, maximal breathing intake, etc., which includes things like high cadence, exhausting anaerobic stores early in an interval, etc.
In the other case, I execute the interval to achieve maximum power irrespective of any other concern. Make power meter go boom. 
I differentiate them as VO2max training vs. Maximum Aerobic Power training in my workout library, and would probably do VO2max training in a late base phase when building the aerobic engine to lift FTP, whereas MAP training would be more build/race specific in many cases.
Hope that clarifies things (but it probably doesn’t). And yeah, this is just my vernacular.
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Interesting, I can get my HR up a lot more when running, and for sustained periods also. Definitely “feel”, I can work vo2 better with running.
Would you mix and match VO2 and MAP sessions during a week / month or do only one type of training for a given training block?
Btw, I hugely appreciate your contributions on this forum. Thanks for everything.
It totally does! And just so you know I wasn’t knocking you at all…. I am always trying learn and I totally get where you are coming from regarding differentiating max aerobic power vs. VO2. 
Having a discussion in good faith goes both ways. A 3k race in college is just under 8 minutes for men and 9 and change for women. So definitely not max aerobic pace, but vo2max by the end. Now let’s try a 5k… definitely not max aerobic pace and very close to the pace you say you prescribe.
Your last response which was quoted was akin to saying “I’m taking my ball and going home, i don’t care what you say”
You’re the one being inflexible saying one needs to get to some arbitrary state, yet we provided examples where individuals didn’t. That’s all.
To build on that… the response you describe is more similar that what i feel when doing a 3-5 minute max effort. Aerobic power vs capacity is also a main component of “the science of winning” in which olbrecht explains that too much aerobic power work will reduce aerobic capacity. This seems to be in line with seiler’s observation that many of tge best athletes stay out of a red zone which you seem to be encouraging ones to enter. So that is my confusion of what you’re prescribing. Others already mentioned this and you simply blew them off.
I probably should have added a modifier to this. On average, or typically. So I’m sure there are plenty of people for whom running is easier to elicit VO2 Max than cycling. Biomechanics, personal distribution and utilisation of muscles, blah blah blah.
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This is where you have to recognise that VO2 max is sport (and in the case of cycling can be machine) specific. It will depend upon the amount of working muscle recruited.
There is no single VO2 max for an individual across multiple sports.
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Usually it’s my pleasure. I had a rough day earlier this week, apparently!
If I’m doing the VO2max stuff, I usually do block periodization with it. One concentrated dose. With MAP, I usually do it as part of a mixed block of periodization. I’ve seen my older masters guys make gains with that style of block much moreso than the single block of VO2 work for reasons I have ideas about, but don’t have the physiological background to say for sure.
So I’ll do MAP work with maybe a sweet spot or threshold workout later in the week. This is how TR structures some of their blocks too. I’ve never given someone a block of just “Go smash 5 minute intervals at max power.”
As you can see, I’m just one dude who makes that distinction. I’m sure many other do not, and obviously there are some who disagree with me in this thread. I’m OK with that.
I simply blew them off because I’m not here to defend and explain my training methodology to every single person under the sun. I’ve explained it. Some disagree with it. That’s fine. I’m not going to spend my time trying to change their minds about it. I’ve spent too much time already in some discussions here with people who want to ask every, “But XXX says this”, and I can find someone who disagrees or agrees with every point someone wants to make. I’ve not seen anything presented in this thread that is something I don’t prescribe at certain times nor anything that I just summarily disagree with.
I have zero interest in debating 3K vs 5K vs VO2max stuff any further. I’ve already explained that above: VO2max training is physiological, and that prescription is different than training for your fastest 3K, 5K, 100K whatever, in my opinion.
The only thing I’ve taken exception to is someone seemingly putting words in my mouth, which we cleared up.
I’m really not sure what Seiler and Olbrecht’s thoughts have to do with anything I’ve written here. It seems like maybe you think what I prescribe for VO2max work is higher power than typical MAP/VO2 work would be, and the opposite is true. Most VO2max intervals end up averaging between 105-120% of FTP, but that power level is not the prescription… it’s just where they end up working because it’s what they can repeatedly sustain while meeting the intent of the interval set. I do not prescribe these intervals as “5x4 min at 115% of FTP.” There is no strict power prescription.
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Thanks for your thoughts on this topic, can you help me understand the quote above? I believe I understand your point that you train VO2max most efficiently by focusing on cadence and not power. But I can’t understand how running at max aerobic power wouldn’t put you at VO2max (outputting max aerobic power would require max O2 uptake over intervals of this duration, right?).
Are you saying that exercising at MAP doesn’t improve VO2max, or that its just not efficient way due to a high recovery cost?
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To your first question, it could, but not necessarily and that isn’t the goal.
To the second, it probably does, but that’s not strictly the focus. And yes, the VO2max intervals I use are repeatable in very high doses. It isn’t pleasant, but part of the design is concentrated stimulus being possible because it does help to preserve your legs for additional sets. If you were focusing on MAP, odds are good you wouldn’t/couldn’t repeat that as frequently because the load on your legs is quite a bit higher.
A lot of the MAP type work I use is 30/15s, 40/20s, etc., where you’re working at a higher power than you could sustain for 6-8 min. The focus is on maximizing power output. Yes, necessarily you will be close to or approaching VO2max when you do that, but you’re not training in such a way where focusing on things like venous return and stroke volume take priority over power output.
But if a 5 min effort is race specific for someone, yeah I do prescribe 5 min repeats at max power. I just don’t do that for everyone.
Hope that makes sense.
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Semantics are important since most of us generally seem to agree on the basics. I still say that when i think of a fish out of water, that person has lost control and about to have a horrible day. I don’t really understand how the physiological response to different efforts at various lengths can be different than being in the “vo2max state” you are, or you aren’t.
I brought up those other coaching advice since you had a few instances that seemed to indicate some overreaching(slow hr response late in block) Overreaching doesn’t necessarily have to come from a higher power or target pace than necessary, but that the dose could still be too high.
There is no question we walk right up to the edge in these blocks, but always in communication with the athlete and keeping a close eye on things. Is there overreaching? Yep. Is it non-functional? No.
I have several different block designs for VO2max I use based on fitness, experience, age, ability, etc. I’m not just cut and pasting workout blocks between athletes here, and there is always flexibility baked in. I communicate daily with my athletes, and adjust the blocks on the fly, often only programming a few days in advance as we monitor things.
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VO2 Max is sport-specific for the reasons you mention.
However, I am trying clumsily to discuss whether you can use cross-training to achieve the specific central adaptations. By achieving very high breathing, HR and venous return. As many have mentioned above, this is not the only adaptation that improves VO2 Max. But it’s perhaps the final marginal gain once the others are achieved. So I was speculating that utilising additional muscles to achieve higher demand for oxygen would enable you to train at a high level of O2 for longer. Before the muscles fatigue. Therefore super-charging this particular adaptation. Others adaptations are better achieved sport-specific, I understand.
There are a handful of vo2 pods from empirical cycling. Do you have any recommended favorites? They’re all pretty dense for me so I definitely need to be in the mood haha.
All of them lol?! I’m ok with the slow vo2max gains from my endurance first work. Someday I’ll listen again, probably will understand it better the second time around.
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I seem to recall that the VO2max series culminates with the Ronnestad podcast. If you listen to #s 23 and 24 you’ll probably get the gist of his vo2max prescription. And that is basically hard start, high rpm intervals.
I was googling around and came across some old Dean Golich periodization schedules for USA cycling and the VO2 prescription is very similar. Friel gives Golich credit in this article:
It’s basically 110-130rpm. It seems like Kolie added the hard start which will get your heart up to speed faster.
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