Inside Ride Kickr E-Flex Trainer Motion System

Equipment
63

I’m not really a roller guy. Just like some people aren’t cat people. Up till the floating fork stand, the product didn’t really appeal to me - and I think in general (especially in 2019), rollers are largely pretty niche (and getting more niche, given the explosion of smart trainers).

In the case of the KICKR E-Flex unit specifically, they’ve both brought a product to the table that I think has widespread appeal (and that I personally would actually ride). And perhaps equally as importantly, they’ve learned the timing of sending products and nailed it.

Which doesn’t mean they did anything wrong in the past. For example, the sent me the floating fork stand and it sat for months in a box. I simply had other things on my plate, and in general ‘what’ I do tends to float with seasons. I haven’t ridden my road-bike outdoors since I think late August now. It’s been all indoors all the time, which worked out well for the KICKR accessory.

Whereas back in June or so, it was all outdoors all the time with tons of products that needed GPS/HR time outdoors on the road.

Further, sometimes there’s also a fiddly element to things. If something is fiddly to get up and running, and if I have a false start where I have to circle back another day - sometimes it gets sidelined for weeks or months. Even the KICKR Flex is a great example of exactly that. I ran into an issue early last week, and InsideRide was great on getting some fixes put together, but ultimately this past Tuesday was the next opportunity on the schedule to dive back into it. Had it not worked on Tuesday, then the next time I’d have spare time in between other planned product reviews would have been at least 2 weeks.

Lastly, there are also plenty of things from Tacx or others I don’t review, despite having a way bigger audience. For example I’ve never reviewed (or posted about) the Tacx Flow Smart Trainer (239EUR FE-C/FTMS trainer), and I’ve actually never done a review of the Wahoo KICKR SNAP - just a quickie post from years ago. Just like I don’t oddly enough have a proper review of the Edge 520 or numerous other things. Being one guy, there’s only so many hours in the day.

TLDR - Timing is everything, and having a cool product that’s not super niche is just as important. Sometimes though, I do super-niche if it just makes me say ‘Wow’.

64

Nice work!
I poked around the related patents a bit and found the original roller patent and the Quick motion/Nero paten…and they had a massive bike treadmill from 2003…way before Tacx came out with their bike treadmill!

65

This looks awesome.

I’m still on a dumb trainer but if they rolled these out for the kickr core then I’d seriously have to consider upgrading my set up

66

For a moment I thought: is that the Kickr Bike Wahoo sent you after customs got through with it? :rofl:

67

This “E-Flex” motion system is exactly the sort of feature I would have liked the new bunch of Smart Bikes to have had…

Affecting comfort and feel across all rides, this is a much more appealing and useful feature to me personally than, say, the Kickr Bike’s “climb” functionality, which doesn’t really have that much relevance to someone like me who spends almost all their indoor trainer bike time doing TR workouts (as opposed to virtual cycling over simulated terrain).

I can nearly always find a reason to wait for “the next version” of an expensive product, and this may well be the justification for me to await v2 or v3 of indoor smart bikes to see if they, hopefully, incorporate this type of motion…

68

Indeed. I got a Climb and for poking around on Zwift, it’s really fun. But for training an any other user really, motion from leaning and fore-aft are FAR MORE REWARDING from a comfort aspect. Those motions are in play 100% of the time on the trainer, where the Climb is specific to the course you ride or manual adjustments (like I do for some TR workouts to work on hills in certain intervals).

69

Correct, the patent office hasn’t starting looking at the fork assembly. I’m a patent attorney, but this is far, far removed from the subject matter I work on. Neat to see it on the TR forum :slight_smile:

70

Something like the Climb will only become useful once it is common enough so that it makes sense for companies other than Zwift to invest money into it. Like you said, I can see a purpose when doing e. g. low cadence intervals, because typically you are only using a low cadence when climbing whereas you ride with a higher cadence on the flats or when going downhill.

But just looking at the Kickr bike, the design there is so much more simple, elegant and presumably robust (as it uses hydraulics), and that makes me think that eventually, say, in 10 years time, the higher-end trainer segment will be populated by bikes. In fact, having removed my bike from the trainer in preparation of this weekend’s race, I can definitely see the appeal, it’d be so much nicer and cleaner if I had a “trainer bike”. Plus, the design seems much more straightforward. Evidently, weight and aerodynamics play zero role, so you don’t need fancy fabrication technologies to build the frame (no hydroforming or carbon layup issues to figure out).

The products released this cycle seem like the original iPhone: the basics are all there, but they are still very much flawed in other ways.

71

This was exactly my thinking 24-18 months ago when I decided to get a premium indoor trainer setup. A permanent, clean, no maintenance setup had (has) huge convenience appeal. At that time, the Wattbike Atom was the only smart bike option, and after looking closely at it, decided it wasn’t for me so went instead for a purpose-built trainer mule + Neo, permanently set up, as the best compromise available at the time.

In their different ways, the Wahoo and Neo bikes both look a bit of a step up on the Atom (looking forward to Ray’s forthcoming shoot out!), but it still seems early days in the evolution of this product niche. I’m potentially in the market for a 2nd indoor trainer setup so had thought I might be buying one of these two (likely the Neo Bike), but despite them looking very interesting and appealing, there are some improvements I’d ideally like to see first…

The motion thing seems increasingly important, particularly for comfort during long sessions, but so are other factors such as even more rapid adjustability between users. I’m disappointed that no one’s been able to engineer better, faster adjustability of crank length, for example. With ~14 inches of height difference between my partner and me, this would be essential if we were both to regularly use the same bike.

Regarding proper motion, including fore/aft, I cannot see Tacx incorporating this anytime soon, as it would require entirely different non-Neo-like packaging. So not an evolutionary v2, v3 step but more a complete redesign of the externals in a successor product, so probably quite a few years down the line if it ever happened. Similarly for the Wahoo bike I guess.

Your “in 10 years time” phrase may well prove apt!

72
  • This is one design I’ve seen used on some future bikes, that is meant for faster adjustment.

https://purelycustomfit.com/product/fit-bike-sizing-cranks/

Another aspect that can sometimes be overlooked is saddle choice and swap. The Kickr may work well, but you have to buy another seat post. Not a terribly large expense, but one none the less. The Neo may not be as easy or cheap.

They both should consider a quick change system, again like we see on some fit bike setups. I can’t find a link, but I’ve seen an option in use on a fit bike.

One concept is a wedge clamp similar to the Redshift Sports quick release aero bars. You’d make a small clamp that attaches to the saddle rails like normal.

Then the QR clamp would attach to the top of a special seat post that matches the QR wedge system. The extra cost for additional saddles would be just the upper saddle mount

I have 2 fore-aft motion concepts that I hope to test this weekend. If they work, they might be added to either design with relative ease. I will share if they actually work.

Also, I just discovered that the Kickr Bike has lateral rocking flex. It will get a better video, but the demo is in the Lama Drives segment from the most recent episode. I linked it at the last post in the Kickr Bike thread.

73

I’ve seen a few quick crank length adjustment options, but nothing like them has made it to the new smart bikes, which is disappointing.

Unsurprisingly, I agree with your saddle swap point also (and bars!).

It seems the product designers haven’t really focused as much as they could’ve on making the bikes as easy but as flexible/customizable as possible for households to share usage between multiple family members. The solutions are mostly low tech, relatively inexpensive, engineering, but need designing in…

Seems a missed opportunity that’s overlooked how plenty of customers might like to use these products. These are potentially quite different products, with different usage patterns, to bikes placed on turbo trainers.

74

Yup, as one of the big draws for these is the ability to quickly adjust sizing, swapping saddles at the very least should be just as easy. And crank length should piggy back on that, IMHO.

75

:rofl:

Been super busy at work, just read your Hands On and watched the video - THANK YOU as always! Yesterday I almost made it to Home Depot to buy a 4’x8’ sheet of birch to build a rocker plate. Thankfully I painted a couple doors and put up outside halloween decorations. $399? Count me in.

76

Living in Portland, I couldn’t pass up the opportunity to contact InsideRide and get the inside skinny on the upcoming E-Flex release. After reading through the comments of this thread, I’d like to share some points I haven’t seen stressed or addressed to date.

I brought my bike with me, kitted up and spent about 30 min riding the E-Flex. In addition to outside rides, I spend about 10 hours each week on TrainerRoad. I really liked the movement of the E-Flex and will DEFINITELY be getting one as soon as they become available. My first impression was that it was EXACTLY what I’ve been looking for. 3D motion that simulates riding outdoors = comfort. I did not have any concern about the base not being wide enough as Ray mentioned. The attached image shows the ability for the KICKR legs to be spread if people are concerned about the footprint of the E-Flex

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Regarding Marketing- They are definitely listening to your feedback and see the need to improve their marketing. That said, I’d like to come to their defense a bit. Their products are designed and manufactured in the USA. Their warehouse space is a legitimate machine shop, not a glitzy startup space. The minds behind InsideRide are engineering and fabrication focused, they’re not very big users of social media so give their lack of videos a little understanding. There is currently a lack of marketing material, but for my 2¢- I’d rather have a well-designed, domestically-produced and reasonably priced motion solution than a razzle-dazzle marketing campaign to catch my attention.

77

Do you get the side to side motion with the Kickr legs out?

78

It will most likely still rock. But I bet the lean angle will be less (looking from the pic) because the legs will contact the ground pretty early due to the small distance between the leg and floor. I wouldn’t recommend that option since it make the unit REALLY wide, and the leg contact with the ground could occur when the fore-aft motion is also happening.

The best solution is for Inside ride to make a wider base on the actual E-Flex. From a stability standpoint, you want to prevent excessive lean in the first place, not catch it after the motion is happening. That can lead to more momentum, while the likelihood and severity of an issue may increase greatly.

I expect we will see them add folding legs to the E-Flex, that allow a small foot print when shipped and stored, but expand for appropriate stability. Essentially take the same approach as the original Kickr with folding legs.

79

I appreciate the additional info. I really like the products and quality that is apparent (from someone who has only seen them or read others comments). As a person in the manufacturing industry, I appreciate the design and apparent quality of their products. I also know the challenges of marketing.

They have a great product in their rollers and I see this new E-Flex as potential to take them well into the trainer market. It has far more potential application than even their great rollers.

But as good as it might be, the lack of proper marketing cripples their sales potential a bit. I made my comments above in the hopes of spurring them to get something more befitting for the good looking product that might just put them in the next level.

I look forward to their improvements and hearing the feedback from those that get the initial units :smiley:

80

@dcrainmaker called InsideRide and spoke with Larry about compatibility with the 15x100 front thru-axle on my bike. His reply - “do you have another bike?” - LOL, now that is a perfect answer for an unreleased product! He did agree to receive email with pics and measurements, and it turns out the fork dropout on my bike has a 22mm opening, which I’m guessing (one bike and all) is a little bigger than the dropout opening for 12x100 thru-axle. So armed with that data, Larry is going to do some homework and let me know if I can send him a small pile of cash without having to upgrade the bike.

81

They need to consider an update like what SeaSucker offers. Super modular design with simple swap end caps.

82

After multiple mounts and dismounts, steady state and sprint efforts, I can attest to the fact that I did not ever feel like I was at risk of falling over. Personally, I like the small footprint of the E-Flex as I live in a condo and my pain cave has limited square footage. That said, I reached out to Larry and this was his response regarding the base.

From Inside Ride:

  1. The working tilt is 5 degrees, but it takes 7 degrees for the KICKR legs to touch the ground, so it does not limit the angle until tipping over is immanent. You are already slightly past the tipping point when the KICKR legs hit the ground, but the width and rigidity of the KICKR legs make it virtually impossible to go beyond that, even if you try. It’s also almost impossible to tip out of range while also in motion, so there’s not any concern with scraping the floor.

  2. As with Rainmaker’s video, the only time you will tip is when you are either climbing aboard or when you are in the saddle AND leaning out beyond the 5 degree tilt range, which may happen inadvertently the first time on the E-flex, but is not at all an issue once you get under way.

  3. Building a wider base for the E-flex might seem like the obvious solution, but why go to the extra expense if the KICKR legs are already there?