Just did bald knob with the fork unlocked. Less sore then the first ride friday but knees more sore then the rides with the fork locked
I was the only one to comment I saw in this thread of their FTP dropping with the eflex which is why I was asking if anyone else saw that. 20 watt drop is pretty significant but donāt know how I fit with what others see
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Interesting, not sure what to attribute that too.
Are you getting lots of lean, or maybe you are controlling in a way that leads to excessive tension in the body?
Copy that. I guess my experience and presence in the FB rocker group bleeds in and I include those comments in my evaluation. True, theres little mention of it here.
Notably, Coach Chad raised the power question in last weeks podcast related to his MP1. Worth a listen (around 26 mins in) if you havenāt heard it yet. Short and inconclusive, but might parallel your experience.
There was definitely a learning curve to using it, but that went away after a ride or two for me.
Didnāt notice a ftp drop, but donāt think I was that close to a test either so couldāve easily adapted between the time I started using the E-Flex and my next test.
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It isnāt worth ruining your training plan but with the ramp test it would be relatively easy to test on the eflex, wait a few days, then test again with no rocker/platform. Not very scientific but you could get some idea if there was a significant difference for you.
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Yup, a couple of wood clamps and the steering lock can get it ārigidā in minutes. Pure peak power, overall efficiency at different duration, general power changes and of course FTP (via any test method) are a few of the areas that are worth a look. Judging the gain/loss is the real challenge with all the potential variables.
I am hoping some scientist will take up bike trainer motion and get some quality testing done. There was some with pitch control, but I have not heard or seen anything related to rocking (left-right lean) or surge (fore-aft) motions and the impact in any measured way. I think it is a very interesting question and may have different answers (gains vs losses) with different power levels and motion direction(s).
If my knees were initially sore from being too used to a very firm upright trainer so the stabilizer muscles are overworked and get sore Iād expect it to take a bit of time to be able to train my stabilizers. Weak stabilizers could also explain the drop in FTP and why the muscle soreness during the ramp was slightly different then normal.
Iām hoping if weak stabilizers drop my ftp on the eflex then strengthening those stabilizers by using the eflex may help with increasing my outdoor power. Also hoping that as stabalizers arenāt the main muscles providing the power they should get stronger quickly so may have to retake the ramp test in a week or so as I may match my previous power.
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That all makes sense to me. If you started with pain, getting beyond that may take time, assuming the change in the system (E-Flex now) will be a positive change that can lead to improvements that remove that problem.
One data point that might be easy to look at is how much movement people have while pedaling steady state. I seem to be around 0.5 to 1cm fore to aft but also seems like Iām moving less now then when I started
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I actually made a āgaugeā on my base to be able to see the amount of movement. I agree that in general, less movement will likely be better.
Itās the same idea seen when we got motion rollers with the same surge motion. Seated pedaling at Threshold and below??? should be minimal until fatigue starts to develop. Most of the motion is likely from the unbalanced nature of our legs in motion. Contrary to popular belief, we are not equally shifting mass in pedaling, so some motion is inevitable. It may well ālose powerā when compared to a rigid setup, but I am not certain that is true. As power increases above Threshold, I think out pedaling tends to get more forceful and possibly erratic to a degree, and that can lead to more motion.
This is all when seated, because standing leads to even more motion since there is more body mass in play.
Iād turn it around and question how much power is leaking due to rigid setup.
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Agreed, itās entirely possible that is a negative issue, and one reason I say we really donāt have enough information to make claims one way or the other.
For anyone interested, here is the document I have started on the āPowerā discussion:
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we donāt have statistics, but it is common to hear people state they can put down more power outside than inside. One reason might be due to power losses from rigid setup, as it fights against the natural motion of the body while pedaling.
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So my 2018 kickr had issues so doing a warranty replacement. Thankfully I didnāt get a chance to sell my old 2017 kickr yet because of covid. Send easy to swap and flip the spring around. The one thing I noticed was the spring part should add lips to both ends. That way you can just push the kickr back until the rear leg his the lip so no need to measure 90mm. The end not being used is fine too have a lip cause the leg above it had a good amount of clearance.
Iām pretty sure I didnāt move either base so it seems like the front base has to move closer to the trainer by 3/4" and to the right by 3/4ā. Just seems weird
I was near the very end of a ramp test today when the watts readout disappeared. After a few shocked seconds, I realized the end of the power cord to the Kickr (which I had taped to the mat for neatness) had come unplugged. I was able to replug it and started again, only to have it happen again after a minute. I think the fore/aft movement became unusually pronounced as my cadence slowed from low 90ās to 60ish as I tried to grind out the last minutes. So I will have to redo the ramp test, but it occurred to me (without first reading your draft paper) that when you are grinding for the last few watts, your body movements become pronounced and that movement could āstealā watts. Since a RT is only ~25 minutes, the comfort of the E-Flex is not necessary. I think it would be interesting to try an apples-to-apples comparison doing RT with E-Flex and then a few days later (with similar recovery before both tests) to see if there is a difference. My gut tells me there would be, but my gut has been wrong before.
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I am open to the potential impact of the motion to power output. I suspect there may well be a difference. The issue is how to practically validate it without undo influence or uncontrolled variables.
Repeats between days are really open to impact from many factors of living a life. If there are differences on the order of a few percent, it will be difficult to firmly attribute it to motion differences vs any of the normal influences. If it is really massive, I expect it to be so different as to be prohibitive and easily noticed. That may well be true at the limits and when we are at our worst efficiency.
Then consider what testing without motion vs training with. Could almost be like the difference between inside and outside FTPās.
I have no answers, lots of questions, and a prediction that this is all more complex than can be easily assessed by any of us 
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All true. FWIW I plan to try RT with/without E-Flex and will report my results if interested. My cadence is 85+ normally, but went from ~70 in minute 18 down as low as 45 just before the loss of power. At that cadence, smoothness is gone, and Iām gritting it out with lots of upper body motion.
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For sure, please share results. I donāt mean to knock down testing, but point out that we need to recognize the potential limits of N=1 testing. Testing may well indicate what works and doesnāt for a given person, but I caution about others taking that info further than informational without their own experience thrown in.
I am really hoping to see studies on trainer motion compared to rigid and outside riding, to see what really is at play here. Iāve done some testing with motion sensor apps on my phones inside, outside and on rollers, and there is some interesting stuff at play.
At the cadences you mention, Iām not at all surprised there are some interesting results. What would be great is parallel testing outside to see what is happening there too. I know that there is far more motion outside than most people realize.
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My experience - fore/aft movement happens when my pedal stroke gets sloppy. Clean up the pedal stroke and the movement goes away.
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