I’m late to this thread so this will seem off topic… but I think ISM has his metabolism backwards with respect to lactate. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt given how much he’s worked with Brooks, but the latest round of podcasts confirms it.
It’s not that lactate clearance capacity (e.g. function of aerobic capacity and MCT transporter density) keeps Pogacar’s lactate levels low–he has this capacity certainly, but he’s not making the lactate in the first place. There is a very large functional difference from his interpretation which would have certain consequences if we dug a little bit. Though the way San Millan is applying his interpretation is the same way that I would apply my interpretation. Another example of metaphorically true, literally false.
Nope. It sticks pretty consistent at around 85-87% MHR. Doesn’t really drift upwards until I push into the 270w range. I actually have no idea what that means in terms of physiology or if my heart rate at that range is too high or too low. I need to look into it more. I just know that I can pedal at 260-265w quite consistently and for an extended amount of time with a heart rate at that 85-87% range without it fluctuating. Seems too high? I am not sure
Yes, I heard this as well @empiricalcycling. I listened to a podcast (might be the same one that you listened to?) where the interviewer spoke about Lance Armstrong and how he made very little Lactate at all. Seems to be the case with Pogacar as well.
I’ll have to listen to more of his recent interviews, but I thought that is how he interprets Pogacar and the Pros’ not accumulating as much BLa?
They don’t produce it, or at least it doesn’t get past the massive density of local mitochondria to reach systemic blood flow?
To my understanding, Training at ~Fatmax/BLa ~1.5, assuming Type IIa fibers begin to be recruited (which I’m pretty confident they would be, at least given long enough duration), should increase mitochondrial content in Type IIa fibers, ie. allow them to produce less La-. Similar mechanisms INSCYD are referring to to lower VLamax.
@tshortt how humbling is it to know that whilst I’m working in my sweet spot and close to anaerobic threshold at 265/270w, old mate Pogacar is cruising and barely cracking a sweat
This is the difference right here. Both would lead to low [La] but we could see the latter as higher RER and the former as lower RER. Tell me which you’d rather have for an endurance athlete.
There’s a fundamental disconnect here with muscle fiber types education and modern research. The ATPase or MHC categorization does not mean metabolic adaptation is directly tied to that. The former responds to training and genetics, the latter to training and genetics, and that they have different stimuli and underlying genes means we can actually get IIa fibers with fat oxidation capacity and mitochondrial density similar to a type I fiber right next to it. VLamax is a red herring, please ignore it as it’s the most fundamentally flawed popular concept in its relation to endurance performance. Oh also, metabolic set points have the same only loose relationship to muscle fiber type; if you have 85% type I fibers, and you only need, say, 65% of muscle mass to maintain FTP, you’re probably not recruiting any “fast twitch” fibers.
You know the question that people ask you, “who would you love to have dinner or a coffee with. Anyone dead or living?”. Kolie Moore from @empiricalcycling is now top of my list. Throw San Millan, Coggan and Seiler into the mix and you’d have to tear me away from that dinner table. I’d leave with a 650 page memoir full of cycling notes.
I just read this article from High North which proved to be a good read about the basics of lactate testing for anyone interested.
Has anyone more information on how the Norwegians (e.g. Blummenfelt & co) use lactate testing? It is known that they use it a lot. But how do they apply it to their training?
did my first round of finger pricking yesterday. definitely a learning curve with it. And having it done by someone else may not be so bad, especially at higher work loads.
Compared to my last test from 4 years ago (earlobe, shorter stages) I see this tendency for higher values (finger vs earlobe). Furthermore, this time my curve is really U-shape like, this makes it difficult to define a baseline (I don’t expect an effect of acute diet in this case).
Considering the published data I deem the first rise above baseline as relevant. This point has moved from 170-180W to about 240-260W over the 4 years. As said, I can’t pinpoint it exactly since baseline is difficult to define. However, this range is where I would have expected it from bodyfeel. Feels good to have it confirmed, I was always unsure. Will do some more pricking to refine the curve.
@empiricalcycling it’s a big statement saying ISM has got his lactate metabolism mixed up.
He is working with George Brooks, who is pretty much the expert in the field and has devoted his life to study it.
What are your opinions on the effectiveness of training in the lactate range which he suggests is most effective (his zone 2)?
I would assume this <1mmol translates to ~ below first significant rise above baseline
and another episode:
Intensity control during training
35:48 -
We started by implementing a very strict intensity control during our training very early on as we started to develop our Norwegian triathletes.
We had a very long term perspective as we started to build our team of Norwegian triathletes, the goal was to build healthy and sustainably fit athletes.
In order to do this, the idea was to do plenty of volume and then it came rather naturally that the intensity had to be very low for the majority of the training sessions.
Consequently, when we do easy training the blood lactate levels should at least be below 1.0 mmol/l, and this we monitor rather closely during a lot of our sessions.
Also during the interval sessions, we make sure that these are performed at the right intensity. Once again, we let the blood lactate levels determine the intensity during many of our interval sessions.
We consider three training zones to be of special importance: the FatMax Zone, anaerobic threshold (probably the most important one) and VO2max.
Be believe that having as high of an anaerobic threshold as possible is extremely beneficial in almost all triathlon race situations.
Even though you manage to hold the same pace as someone with a higher anaerobic threshold, that person will have to activate anaerobic processes to a larger extent and that will at a higher rate empty the glycogen stores of that athlete.
Having a high anaerobic threshold also seems very crucial in order to utilize fat as a fuel at all sub maximal intensity levels, which is very beneficial in longer events.
When we do anaerobic threshold training, we typically aim for lactate levels between 2.5-3.0 mmol/l on the intervals.
In order to determine the lactate threshold, we have developed a standardized ramp test comprising of 8x6 min, which is a considerably longer test protocol compared to most tests designed to determine anaerobic threshold.
We make sure that we start below the first lactate threshold (aerobic threshold/LT1) and have at least two steps that are above the anaerobic threshold (LT2), we increase the power output on the bike by 5 % for each step or 1 km/h on the run.
In the swim we perform 8x500m.
When estimating the threshold according to these protocol, we typically find that the anaerobic threshold lands around 2.5-3.0 mmol/l lactate rather than the typical 4 mmol/l, which is often used as a benchmark lactate level for the anaerob threshold.
For this well trained athletes, I believe that it is crucial that every step is long enough so that any eventual lactate build up will be visible.
For age group athletes, these long steps may not be ideal as they may not express the fitness level to endure the full test protocol. 4 mmol/l of blood lactate would be significantly anaerobic efforts for my athletes.
To measure VO2max, we do another test.
We have also started to track VlaMax as a parameter, even though we do not follow it as closely as VO2max and the thresholds yet.
I have seen that the VlaMax is highly reactive to training and also very individual.
For instance, after the WTS finals in Lausanne, both Kristian and Gustav’s VlaMax was quite high as they were going into the 70.3 World Championships in Nice, so given that we had to be extra diligent when it comes to nutrition as we know that a fairly high VlaMax brings the carbohydrate consumption up.
The VlaMax is still something that is quite new for us, and I do not possess that much knowledge about it yet, but it is something very interesting and I look forward to learn more about.
