I ❤️CARBS! (and so should you!)

[Captain_Doughnutman]

@trpnhntr

I’d recommend you eat for all of your rides until you’ve maxed out your easy gains and not attempt even the endurance rides fasted until you’re really pushing the edges of your fitness capabilities.

Your weight loss will come in the kitchen, don’t short change the workouts!

To quote @empiricalcycling (via Reddit):

In developing athletes I’ll do low intensity low CHO rides for weight loss but that’s it. Otherwise the work load is too high and without carbs, you can’t train right.

There are maybe 3 reasons to do it: the athlete has hit their natural ftp ceiling, they’re targeting super long events that require more gluconeogenesis (i.e. 24 hour MTB race, 400k brevet), or they don’t race and rarely train above a certain intensity.

To make good long term shift to fat reliance you need to make your body see the error of its glycogen burning ways. And you have to train really hard for that… you have to ride a lot longer in z2 for those benefits and most amateurs don’t have that kind of time.

The big takeaway is that no matter what, diet and training change substrate use. Diet changes it in the short term and has costs high power outputs, while training changes it in the long term.

[empiricalcycling]

I’ve since changed my philosophy on this due to a better understanding of the underlying principles. One of the unfortunate things about quoting me is I’m always doing research and that means changing my mind a lot, and I like to think always for the better. I’ve been doing low CHO rides in most endurance athletes this year with good results, but only under well controlled conditions. So if I said something longer than like… let’s say 3 months ago, you should probably ask me for a fresh opinion.

What I have not changed my mind about is that burning more fat is, in and of itself, not a better aerobic stimulus. So doing low carb, keto, or fasted training will get you burning more fat (<- edited this because brain fart), there are a lot of additional caveats that go with it.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

Consumer carb review:

Cycling nutrition: Your ultimate guide

[Captain_Doughnutman]

I’ve only done 2hr workouts w/ 2x75-80g, but I’m ingesting all that in 90min. Since sucrose is a 50/50 split, I could probably up it to 120g/hr but would end up whizzing out at least 20g of that. No way I could do 100g/hr of straight up sugar, the sweetness is insane.

When racing returns I’m most likely not going to be doing any races longer than 3-4hrs (maybe the odd 5hr fondo) so I’m pretty good with my current mix…so far.

[cwiggum]

@redlude97

Is anyone doing multiple hours on only table sugar or single sugar mixes?

Not really answering your question, but I’ve done 6-8hrs rides around 90-100g/hr but that was staying strict to the 2:1 glucose/fructose ratio. I would say for that duration I didn’t need 90-100g/hr as at that pace I’d be using a slightly lesser % of fuel from carbs, and my hourly calorie rate would be lower than a 2-3hr ride. But I was pushing my limits so wanted to get in as much as I could.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

@redlude97

That is where specific ratios in products like beta fuel and maurten are better tested.

From an interwebs article:

An isotonic drink is one that has a similar concentration of carbohydrates and electrolytes to your blood — which allows for easier absorption. One significant characteristic of concentration is that it is based on the number of molecules, and not the size of the molecules.

Here are the rough numbers: maltodextrin is isotonic at 300g/1000ml. Simple sugars like Glucose, Fructose, and Sucrose are isotonic at 52g/1000ml. This means that you need to dilute the simple sugars with six times as much water as maltodextrin to hit that isotonic ‘sweet spot’. If the concentration is too high, absorption is impeded, which can start off an unpleasant chain of events.

From SIS:

At Science in Sport we select a very specific type of maltodextrin with an atomic weight of 52,000 to allow us to create a unique and patented isotonic gel formulation, which has an osmolality of 281 mmol/kg, sitting very clearly in the isotonic range. The article described beverages with an osmolality of under 290 mmol/kg as perfect.

When it comes to choosing the right gel formulation for you, the length of event you are taking part in also needs to be taken into consideration.

According to Barraclough, 2:1 gels that are two parts maltodextrin one part fructose are best suited to long distance events.

Fructose is a low glycaemic index carbohydrate, meaning that the energy from it is slowly available. Whereas glucose is readily absorbed and can be used directly, fructose has to be digested, absorbed, and then processed by the liver before it is in a format the muscles can use to produce energy, said Barraclough.

This process typically takes at least 90 minutes, and glucose receptors must be fully saturated for this to occur. It is therefore not very suitable for high intensity exercise when you need the energy quickly as high rates of energy production are needed.

So…Beta Fuel is a very expensive choice for TR workouts and probably not a great fuel.
Save it for those 5hr breakaways.

Secondly…(oh man I’m so gonna get this math wrong!)…my bottles are 625ml water + 80g sucrose (40g glucose + 40g fructose). If sucrose is isotonic at 52g/1000ml…this makes my bottles 128g/1000ml, meaning I have to cut it down to ~32g/625 bottle to obtain “sweet spot”/non-GI upset absorption?

But…if glucose can be sucked up at 60g/hr and it takes ~90min for fructose to be usable (all per SIS)…then surely I’m using 100% of my glucose and most of my fructose…?

Maybe I’ll just pay the $5/pack.

[DazzaW1]

Yeah uh no!?! I have tried SIS stuff horrible gut pain and had issues for days afterwards. Not once but several times the first time being my first sprint triathlon and I was not even finished the bike leg and had the irritation start.

[DazzaW1]

Redlude97 you are going to have to train your stomach to hit those high gm/hour. I ran my first marathon and last in 2018 4 hrs 30 min I tried a high high fructose drink like honey water but my gut was to stressed to handle that so kept using cliff bloks they absorb slower and you can just leave them in your cheek and then bite of a little along the way. When I race crits now I use them the same way but make sure that I finished it by the last 20min of the race ready for the sprint.
On my weekend rides (+3hrs) now I am fueling using brown sugar using 50gm per hour with some fruit like a banana works for me. Your body can use fat as well if it needs fuel it all depends on the intensity.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

From a TP article (2019):

A 1:1 ratio of glucose to fructose appears to be well tolerated by most people during intense exercise, and increasing up to 144g total carbs per hour as efforts increase is likely good practice…The most rapid absorbing mixtures will be between 0.8:1 and 1:1 fructose:glucose ratios…

To me this says sugar – a 1:1 ratio of glucose to fructose – is a solid bet for probably anything up to 3 hours.
Or am I confusing sucrose with a glucose and fructose mix, as in the former requires digestion before absorption and the latter merely gets absorbed?

Giving maltodextrin some serious thought…looks like sugar is bit slower to absorb, possibly less GI distress, and with lower water requirements.

Damn you, science!

[Nestigd]

I’ve also started experimenting with sugar water and all I can say is that my RPE has gone down, but I’d like to know if I’m missing out on potential benefits from switching to a different strategy

I’ve read (in this forum if I remember correctly) that it is advised to take monosaccharides as they are more easily absorbed. Honey contains mainly monosaccharide molecules (glucose & fructose) as opposed to sucrose which is a disaccharide, so I guess that it would be a cheap option too. I’d really like to know what the actual difference is in terms of GI stress and absorption time.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

@Nestigd

Honey contains mainly monosaccharide molecules (glucose & fructose) as opposed to sucrose which is a disaccharide, so I guess that it would be a cheap option too.

I’d stay away from honey. Yes, it’s monos but with a higher % of fructose (read @redlude97 previous post); it’s also not as carb dense as other sugars, 100g of honey is only ~80-85% carbs. Additionally, an analysis a few years ago found that most honey sold in the US isn’t actually honey, it’s just artificially sweetened goo. And much more expensive than other sugars. Plus it’s not vegan (it’s bee barf! ). Whew! That said, I love honey!

@Nestigd

I’d really like to know what the actual difference is in terms…absorption time.

I’m trying to find that out too, just to see what I’m actually using vs p*ssing away or storing as fat (and vs other formulations). It’s been a task thus far. I think the proof is in (some) of the products on the market, with Beta Fuel being perhaps the leader in carb mixology. We can (mostly) trust their research and spend more time training and less time scouring the internet.

At this point, probably most carb mixes will get you through a sub-3hr race/workout just fine. It’s when you start doing those longer 6/12/24hr events where carb selection needs to be very well thought out and planned and has maybe an even more important role in race outcome than actual training.

[cwiggum]

@Captain_Doughnutman

At this point, probably most carb mixes will get you through a sub-3hr race/workout just fine. It’s when you start doing those longer 6/12/24hr events where carb selection needs to be very well thought out

I think it’s more important to get it right for 3-6hr efforts compared to 12/24hr efforts. As duration increases we know that intensity has to decrease which in turn means most likely at least 50% of calories burned are going to come from fat on those ultra long efforts. That and your hourly calorie burn will be lower.

[4ibanez]

I’ve just been drinking 1 portion of my homemade Beta Fuel (90g @ 2:1 malto/fructose + electrolytes in a 750ml bottle) for Threshold and above, also for longer, i.e. 2 hour Sweetspot. Anything over an hour I have a 2nd bottle, normally with just water and electrolytes. I’m not sure this is optimal (I’m completing my workouts ok, but rarely feeling amazing at the end, and am hungry all the time), and want to nail my in-ride fuelling better…

Can we contextualize the intake in terms of TR workouts where optimal fuelling is likely to help us?

• For 1.5 - 2 hour workouts, are we thinking Beta Fuel in the first hour, then a 2nd bottle with just maltodextrin over the following 45 mins or so?
• For hard 1 hour rides, or rides where all the intensity is over in the first hour (like Williamson +4), are we thinking just 1 bottle with 60g of maltodextrin within say 45 mins?

[Captain_Doughnutman]

I see where you’re coming from. I was commenting more about GI distress rather than utilization/absorption. But yeah, those middle ground durations you’d have to consider both aspects.

@4ibanez

For 1.5 - 2 hour workouts, are we thinking Beta Fuel in the first hour, then a 2nd bottle with just maltodextrin over the following 45 mins or so?

This is probably overkill. From SIS Beta Fuel page:

Fuelling requirements for long endurance events (greater than 2.5 hours) are 60-90 g of carbohydrate per hour.

I’ve gone too far down this rabbit hole, I know less now then when I started.

[4ibanez]

Would be good to hear something about this on a forthcoming podcast

[Giorgio_Orlandi]

Haven’t gone down the path of gels, supplements, etc quite yet, but I’ve seen tremendous gains (more sustained power and less RPE) loading on whole grains such as rolled oats, bread and pasta as well a regular rice, farro, barley and fruits.

Also, been putting a teaspoon of honey and some salt in one of the two water bottles I use. Incredibly useful after halfway. Noticed I also need salt as much as carbs to feel good.

Just out of curiosity, have there been studies on the effect of yeast? For example, are the carbs from pizza/bread (Not pizza hut of course, but genuine Italian pizza) different from those in pasta or rice?

Just to share, this is my post 1.5hr threshold ride snack. Wholewheat bread, pickles, greek yogurt with blueberry jam, and a banana. Ready to go again tomorrow, and not feeling starved for when I sit at the dinner table for the next meal.

[bbarrera]

Last Sunday I forgot to pack my jersey pockets (food, 2nd spare tire, etc) and ended up without food on an almost 4 hour ride: What workout did you do today? (2020, part 1) - #3023 by bbarrera and to save you a trip to that thread here is the image (aerobic endurance power level highlighted):

Turned it into a “how much on-board glycogen?” experiment. The planned workout was 4 hours with 60 minutes of sweet spot and the remainder endurance riding. Ended up doing 3:49 with 65 minutes of sweet spot / threshold work. Made it a little longer than 2.5 hours before feeling the start of “bonk emptiness” and lowering power to bottom of endurance / z2.

Back of the envelope using INSCYD data - my first rough estimate is about 350g muscle/liver glycogen used during the entire ride and I never bonked. Definitely felt like the blood sugar levels running low, and if I did another 20+ hard interval that might push me to the edge. No specific carb loading but in this house we eat a metric ton of fruit and vegetables along with some whole grains.

FWIW, thought somebody might find that interesting.

[holybinch]

OK, so, I did a pretty heavy workout today. Compared to it, Leconte was piss easy.
I ate well before, since i started a bit later.
I ate on the bike, date bites, gels, haribos.
I’ve been ok all day, legs a lot less knackered than they were on Friday.
Not drawing conclusions yet, but i’m going to keep fueling

[awoffinden]

How much water are you having with your carbs. Torq energy drink says 500ml water with 30g carbs at their suggested concentration. Do I just have to get lots of liquid down me or can I use a higher concentration?

[Nestigd]

The bee barf cracked me up

I did 3 x20min sweetspot today (Hunter) and tried honey as the main carb source. It was ok for the first hour or so, but gulping down all that honey was no joke during the later part of the workout. I’ll go back to sugar water which is way easier to drink for me. I mean… you add some lemon juice, cool it in the fridge and you get lemonade (very very sweet lemonade that is… )