Yeah, it’s hard to say what would move the needle. You seem to have the structure and intervals covered, and you sound like you are very consistent doing that. Huge check marks there! I’m thinking it’s your overall volume that needs a shakeup. When I say volume, I mean your hours and load. Your CTL does look on the low end to me.
In contrast, I’m 50 years old and do zero structure, no intervals, but have a much higher CTL. I peak around 118-120, and now hover around 100 CTL. Maybe I’m underestimating my FTP for parts of the year, but it can’t be too far off. I sit around 4.5-4.6 w/kg pretty consistently if my weight stays constant. I’m not saying this is the best way, but a block of less structure, but more volume could move the needle - I don’t see a downside, unless you really like the structure and that’s what motivates you to be consistent.
I haven’t quite done this with cycling but with other sports what I’ve seen is that yes, you can maintain it for a while but eventually you will see a drop. Probably not back to where you were but a drop none the less. And that drop will be highly individual based on your physiology, how long you were at that higher number, how low you drop down after, what kind of training you did to get there, and what kind of training you do at the lower number.
But as a totally rough guesstimate, if you’re at 300W on 8 hours a week, and you go to 15+ hours and get to 350W, then drop back to 8-10W you can probably expect to be able to hover around 325-330W. But you might also see lower repeatability and less durability/endurance as well.
For OP, I think the number one thing is volume. If you have the ability to do 15 hours a week then you should do that. It might mean that 3 intervals a week is too much, especially because it sounds like you’re also lifting.
After that, you weren’t too specific about the actual intervals that you are doing but do you feel like the SS and Threshold workouts are progressing out to your TTE? Most TR workouts just won’t push you that far due to the time crunch. I’d suspect that if you’re at 4.5w/kg that you’re fit enough to be doing at least 90minutes of SS in a workout.
Have you ever done a VO2 block? Like 2-3 weeks with 6 VO2 workouts a week? It was something I did for the first time 2 years ago and saw a 20W FTP bump a month later. Then another 10W the next year after being a bit stagnant. It’s the hardest couple weeks on the bike but it seems to work.
I should add that this wasn’t with TR, I have a coach.
I couldn’t maintain when I dropped back to lower hours. I tried very hard for a while.
If it had been the extra time noodling then maybe I could have, but it wasnt it, it was all focused structured training (balanced between intervals and long rides)
To cope with and adapt to the additional volume I had to do many ‘other’ things to support the training.
To support the volume some of the things I did, but not limited to were…
Sleep 9-10 hour every night
Bed and wake the same time every day
Focus on quality rest
Focus on Vegetables, Fruit, whole foods and lean meat and fish, almost no processed foods
Zero alcohol for over a year
A small amount of maintenance strength training (not counted in the hours I mentioned, I periodise this)
Lots of stuff that to be honest became too much for the return
When I dropped the volume back I also dropped the ‘Monk training life style’ and as performance dropped I eventually got disheartened to be honest, after a few seasons I ended up not even doing the 8-10 hours I had done for years before. I moved mainly onto other things like I learnt to swim and returned to running more and more
Note I said after few years of stagnation, it was actual about 5 - 6 years hitting a similar peak each season.
Also I said 15 hours, that was average I did a few 20 hours weeks and one 21 hour week as a peak week.
That was basically the experiment I conducted.
Would love to provide more detail but it would take me all day. Think I have covered the main points, however the devil is in the detail.
Hmm that’s interesting point. I am really curious, when (if) I would reach 5w/kg, what it would take to maintain it, or something close to it. I don’t have to sit at 360w ftp. I would he happy sitting at the range 340-360 or something like that. I simply need more absolute watts than 310-320 for certain Strva KOMs Espeically hilly TT.
I don’t think I have reached my potential. Ofc I dont claim that it is unlimited. But given that I rarely do 10+/week, I am far away from my limit. Maybe I have reached a limit in terms of what I can get riding 8-10h/week. But even in this case, I still I can improve recover etc., and do better with that time.
I gave a bunch of ways someone could get faster without changing their FTP
Yeah, I achieved them when being stuck on 320 ftp. Even though my ftp is the same as it was in 2023, I am faster. I even climb faster, even though w/kg is the same. My Z2 is stronger, aero better, more efficient, can burn more carbs etc etc. Now I just need to increse ftp further. Otherwise there is no point at training besides maintaining what I got. I will try mix things up and up volume by few hours/week. Will see.
You are at a much higher level than myself for a decent period of time already, and pretty close to that 5wkg, I can see why you might want to go for it.
IMO, considered the long term as well.
Going too extreme doesnt work too well long term.
I think you are close enough to maybe able to get there with some focus and tweaks.
So when you did 15 hours and improved your FTP, was it unsustainable to keep it there when you dropped back down? Like couldn’t you just go to 10 hours and ride at the higher numbers?
It felt to me that I ride too much and don’t have time for other stuff in life. So I thought: maybe TR will allow me to increse FTP by doing less volume but more intensity (this is how they advertise them all the time) . It seems to me that this doesnt work after certain treshold. I think I have reached that and only bigger volume once again can give me better ftp. So I will need to leave cross training and do 12h+/week again. If that’s the case, and if I can maintain 5w/kg only by constantly doing 12hr+/week, I think it might be unsutainable in the long term.
Also, in 2023 I was following TR. When I reached 320, there was off season coming up. My ftp declined to 305. In another season I reached 320 near Autumn, so it was already too late for consistent training at new FTP. And basically the story is the same every year. I guess I need to do better base. Reach 320 ealier in the year.
Good luck, I’m right there with you. My main mission this winter is to raise the FTP as much as possible, if I can. I’ve already done all the other things and have been basically at the same general FTP area for a couple years. Last year I lowered my weight so my w/kg is much better now and I didn’t lose any power. But yeah, the only thing left seems to be just pushing on the pedals harder so that is my focus to see what I can wring out of myself. I’m trying slightly less volume, but going harder on my hard days so TSS will be similar. My endurance is great, I can ride all day every day. But I would love to raise my ceiling.
In contrast, I’m 50 years old and do zero structure, no intervals, but have a much higher CTL. I peak around 118-120, and now hover around 100 CTL. Maybe I’m underestimating my FTP for parts of the year, but it can’t be too far off. I sit around 4.5-4.6 w/kg pretty consistently if my weight stays constant. I’m not saying this is the best way, but a block of less structure, but more volume could move the needle - I don’t see a downside, unless you really like the structure and that’s what motivates you to be consistent.
Yeah, there seems to be an agreement here that more volume is needed to acheive 5w/kg, at least for me. I constantly do the structrue, but I rarely do 15h+/week or even long rides (4h+). In three years I got like 4 weeks like that. I need bigger CTL for sure.
Maybe you can get there, I wonder how you will feel if you do… the trade offs and commitment might be not worth it. Its just a number.
I get the wanting more and the desire to improve, I’m just pointing out it can be overrated
Yeah. I agree it might be overated. My idea is this: push hard for 5w/kg. And then maintain power close to it for as many years as possible, but without training as hard as I initially did for acheving 5w/kg. I think that after you reach a certain new peak in the training, it is easier to reach it again. Body is already on another level, adapted, even if you detrain a little bit. That’s my theory at least. It works on my current level. In order to maintain 4,5w/kg I can do much less volume than I initially had to do to acheive it for the first time.
Good luck, I’m right there with you. My main mission this winter is to raise the FTP as much as possible, if I can. I’ve already done all the other things and have been basically at the same general FTP area for a couple years. Last year I lowered my weight so my w/kg is much better now and I didn’t lose any power. But yeah, the only thing left seems to be just pushing on the pedals harder so that is my focus to see what I can wring out of myself. I’m trying slightly less volume, but going harder on my hard days so TSS will be similar. My endurance is great, I can ride all day every day. But I would love to raise my ceiling.
Let us know if you figure it out!
Thanks, good luck to you as well! I see you are in a similar position. I also lost few kg’s recently. Now it is time to raise ftp.
See you on the damn trainer
Yeah, to push a higher CTL, you will need to do less intensity for sure (at least at first). Your body will adapt to the higher load, and then you can layer more intensity on top. If done properly, this will raise your fitness and FTP. I was actually thinking I would attempt to do some actual consistent training myself, but at 50, I’m not sure the 5 w/kg is possible anymore. I was there in my early 40s with less effort. I fear it would take a huge effort/focus now to achieve that and I don’t think I would be committed enough to pull it off.
After that, you weren’t too specific about the actual intervals that you are doing but do you feel like the SS and Threshold workouts are progressing out to your TTE? Most TR workouts just won’t push you that far due to the time crunch. I’d suspect that if you’re at 4.5w/kg that you’re fit enough to be doing at least 90minutes of SS in a workout.
Have you ever done a VO2 block? Like 2-3 weeks with 6 VO2 workouts a week? It was something I did for the first time 2 years ago and saw a 20W FTP bump a month later. Then another 10W the next year after being a bit stagnant. It’s the hardest couple weeks on the bike but it seems to work.
Every year I come close to SS/Z4 level 8 or something. So I do like 4 x 20 min @ SS or 3 x 20 at treshold. I also occasionally just ride 60 min @ ftp To trully test it. Actually, I love doing SS outside. So… it might be a sign to do more of things which I dont like… which is vo2/anerobic. I do 0 anerobic stuff. Do you? If yes, why?
I never reach those high levels in vo2. Usually end the season at level 5 or 6. I might be doing not enough vo2 workouts. I never did 2-3 weeks of pure vo2 to reach my peak. I was doing vo2 mainly in speciality phases, for 3-5 weeks. 1 vo2 training per week. Adding SS/Z4 besides it.
Perhaps you are on the right track. I need more Z5 and maybe even above. But I am not sure if Z6/7 are needed for incersing ftp. I dont race.
Okay, that’s a decent amount. You could probably push it a bit further but sounds like you’re pretty much there. Just wanted to make sure you weren’t stopping at like 4x10 SS or something.
Yeah I do. But I also race crits primarily so it’s more for race specific fitness that for general fitness building. It’s probably not totally necessary but sometimes having a bit more anaerobic fitness going into a VO2 block can help you go even harder during those shorter (but still heavily aerobic) intervals.
I think this is one aspect of TR plans that can slow some people’s progress or at least lead to a bit of a plateau. They generally seem to program VO2s as you get closer to the races (i.e. specialty) as a means of getting better at VO2 efforts and not as a way to heavily stimulate the aerobic system to increase FTP. They also spread them out a decent amount where I’ve found the concentrated VO2 blocks really give great adaptations. There’s a thread on doing them somewhere but here’s my calendar from a couple years ago when I did one:
The endurance and extra volume was done super easy (like 55-60%) so even though the hours were kept high the intensity was very low. It’s cut off just cause of the size of the screen but the 15th I did the Morning VO2 (of a planned double day) and was just so beat that we called it. I tried again on the 21st but was still way too tired.
I’m not a coach so I can’t say for sure it’ll be what does it but it worked for me and is definitely a major stimulus. Just remember that you need to recover equally hard afterward. I basically then did 2.5 weeks of recovery with some endurance before testing with an easy FTP workout and even then it took another week or so for my legs (and new, higher FTP) to come around. I’ve heard some people can kinda screw it up by getting back to too much work too quickly and fatiguing themselves.
Espeically hilly TT.
To trully test it. Actually, I love doing SS outside. So… it might be a sign to do more of things which I dont like… which is vo2/anerobic. I do 0 anerobic stuff. Do you? If yes, why?
