You could try on of the coaching apps, like TR, Xert, Join, Enduco, or even a Zwift plan, instead of following a rough plan somebody on the internet had made up for you on the spot. Or you could hire a human coach, who can create the plan for you and guide you through it. Or you could keep trying different things and see if it works, but as you’ve put a timeframe to your progress, getting a bit of experience to help might be beneficial (even if it is in form of an app).
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The 5x5min @350w I did with 5minute rests @200w in between. Also I did 2hours of zone2 riding before this interval.
I looked back at the data from my last 20minute effort (338w) and I managed to average 352w for the first 11mins before power started to drop of slightly
What sort of rest period should I have in between the 5min efforts? And zone it be at zone2 power?
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Again, I disagree that VO2max intervals are the way to go (based on personal experience, as well as knowing how, e.g., World Champion TTers train).
As for VLaMax, it’s a bogus concept.
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IF your goal is to increase your VO2max, then:
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do the intervals at the start of your ride (after an adequate warm-up, of course), not at the end;
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increase the power to the maximum you can sustain across all efforts;
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lower the power during the recovery periods into level 1;
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consider shortening the rest period, and/or adding a 6th effort (though there’s absolutely nothing wrong with 5 x 5 on/off).
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Very nice, this reminds me a lot of the training school of another great coaching professor Doct. Ferrari (dedicated topic here on TR).
On several podcasts though there seems to be the guidance that training at threshold is “only” ever useful to increase TTE and not FTP itself. What gives then? Is training at ftp useful if anything to get used to the right pacing and suffering required for longer durations?
From the training topic here’s what the doc said:
Ferrari literally saying to improve ftp (AT4), train at or right under it (2-3 mmol, or sweetspot). Too hard training (above 5mmol) can be harmful even.
What duration do you have in mind for these intervals?
no rest day allowed?
Looks like classic Hard/Easy days… 1 hour level 2 should feel pretty easy while doing it.
I’m not putting words on @The_Cog 's keyboard, but MY interpretation from this thread alone… Is that he believes anyone who thinks 5w/kg x 30 minutes is a reasonable target/goal can handle the 1hour level 2 ride as an easy day… It might not be a pure recovery day, but the endurance volume is probably needed…
It also looks suspiciously like the pattern of a lifestyle/training time carve-outs for work-a-day riders trying to balance work, family and [Hobby]. Claiming that hour 7 days a week as part of a routine makes one a more consistent rider than someone who needs a true off day or two a week.
If you are completing 5x5 with 5 minute rest periods that’s golden (1 to 1 ratio); I would suggest making the rest periods sub-Z2, intentionally easy spinning, and you might find that this easier spinning enables you to add 5-10 watts to each interval or add a sixth. The goals is recovery so you can give the best effort possible, so make the 5 minutes easy.
While I like Z4 training, especially slightly above 100%, most people focus these efforts on 1 hour (or longer) goals. You are targeting only 30 minutes, kind of a short duration for road cycling, which is why I think the 5x5 efforts with their higher glycolytic requirement are important. I don’t use this lingo, but various articles refer to this as pulling up FTP from above.
An alternative, non-FTP way to do 5 minute intervals is to determine your all-out, absolute max 5 minute power (meaning you are absolutely dead and cannot do intervals after this 5 minute effort). Then do 5x5 intervals based on a percent of that max 5 minute power. You’d have to experiment, but try starting with 90% of that power, see how it goes, and adjust up or down X watts depending on how many you can complete.
Are you using ERG or level/resistance on the trainer? Level/resistance feels more road-worthy and has a better force requirement for the legs (if you increase cadence it means you are working harder, so keep it steady, whereas with ERG if you increase cadence it becomes easier for your legs as the resistance decreases).
Can’t believe it took 20 posts to give this recommendation.
What you need is a progressive plan - eg increasing interval duration or power. You wanna make ever so slight changes upwards in each week, but over time these add up.
If you haven’t used structured training before with such progression built in, I’m fairly confident that you could make a good step towards your goal.
Note also that such X watts per minute for so many kg body weight goals are often not considered great goals because they a not something you can directly control. It’s better to have progress goals, e.g. make sure you complete 3x per week of progressive interval sessions on 22 of the next 26 weeks. Or if there’s an actual weight issue, e.g. don’t eat candy on 6/7 days per week. You get the point.
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When I’ve previously attempted a 5minute effort… my PB is 416watts. However I think now will be closer to 400w or slightly just under. So taking the 90% from that would put me at around 360w for the 5x5 efforts. I think is too high as I can barely make it through the 5x5@350w. On the last 2 intervals my cadence drops drastically and really struggle. I might be able to to go a little harder but would need more than the 5mins recovery I currently have.
I only use erg for my zone 2 and 5x5 or 3x15 sessions. When I do say a 20min effort on levels/resistance I tend to find I struggle to keep a consistent power level… as I have poor pedal smoothness. My power is up and down like a yo-yo at 380-300… I’m not very smooth and consistent at all
That’s exactly the reason you shouldn’t use ERG mode, to improve smoothness, power control, etc.
Try 5x3 around 95% of your best 5m power, no ERG mode and cadence really high. 100RPM +
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Did that myself with the specificity added in too. Started at 8m, then 12, 20, 25, 45… You get the picture. VO2 just got me ready for the suck moments and opened it up a tad, but just doing longer efforts helped me, albeit super steady and not tipping over edge.
Hey guys,
Just thought I’d give this thread an update… I’ve altered my training over the last few weeks to include 3 interval days instead of 2.
Instead of doing 3x15min@95%ftp twice a week… I now do 6x5min@110%ftp (350w) once a week and 2 workouts of 2x15 & 3x10@105%ftp (335w) so all my interval sessions each week now are above ftp.
When first starting doing 6x5min intervals, I would struggle 2-3blocks in and my cadence would drop to 50-60rpm and I would be out of the saddle struggling and fail on the 5th or 6th block. Now I’ve adapted to it over the last few weeks, I can complete all 6 blocks seated at around 85-95rpm and is starting to feel more comfortable.
My current training plan as follows.
Mon: 6x5min@110% ftp (350)
Tues: 2hours z2
Wed: REST
Thurs: 2x15min@105%ftp (335)
Fri: 2hours z2
Sat: 90mins z2 first then 3x10@105%ftp (335)
Sun: REST
I’m thinking each week reducing the rest between intervals by 15-20seconds so in 13weeks time there will be very little rest time between intervals and will hopefully get me closer to the 350watts for 30mins I’m aiming for.
My weight has dropped from 75kg (165lbs) down to 73.5kg (162lbs) which will help towards the 5w/kg goal. I’ve got 13 weeks to loss another 7lbs.
Any thoughts?
Cheers
yes, if you want to work on time to exhaustion, due to a threshold block, if you want to raise threshold do an actual vo2 block. This is a bit of a weird middle ground that I’m not entirely sure will get you to your goal
Yea, not feeling this at all. Do proper VO2max or proper threshold work.
Swap Mondays session to 5x5@120% or 4x8@110%. Swap Thu session to 3x20 @ 95-100% or (preferably) a second VO2 max session. Sat: 120 Min high tempo-low sweet spot.
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Honest question. Why did you pick those 2 sessions?
Ignoring actual VO2/Threshold workouts, the plan looks similar to the TR’s Short Power Build plan, with Mon/Wed switched around: Day Off / VO2 / Endurance / VO2 / Endurance / Threshold / Long Endurance.
Not sure I can do 5x5@120% that would make it 385 watts for me. Might last 1-3 blocks but definitely not 5.