I’m new to TR but in my prior training experience I’ve done traditional VO2 max workouts of 3-5 minutes. Using my TR plan I’ve completed one 30-30 workout but didn’t feel that it stressed my aerobic fitness as much as what I was used to. My question is how hard should I go on each 30s interval, as hard as I can for 30s or stick to the 120% of FTP as prescribed?
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Depends what the intent of the workout is:
VO2 Max: do 30/15s or 40/20s instead. 30/30s give you too much recovery. Go hard enough out of the gate that your HR quickly gets up and your breathing gets ragged. The power of the efforts will fall slightly over the course of each set. 2 or 3 sets each of about 10 minutes with 5 to 10 minutes between sets.
Anaerobic capacity: Not quite a full sprint but not far off. The power will drop significantly over the course of each set. 2 to 4 sets each of 5 minutes with 10 minutes between sets. Try not to fall off the bike after each set.
There are no set power targets. Either absolute or relative to FTP. You have to FAFO. 
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30/30 is classic Billat protocol for VO2max. Target HR should be in the 90-95% bracket. 120% of FTP might not be sufficiently intense; 125%, or thereabout might be more appropriate.
The benefit of these kind of protocols is that it’s possible to accumulate considerable time in zone without accumulating high levels of lactate acid.
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My coach 10 years ago would have me do 30/30s at 145-150% ftp ‘on’, soft pedal for ‘off’ (<50% ftp), repeat.
When I came to this forum, I found it quite surprising to hear people would do them at 120%, it’s a bit baffling how that would get you good vo2 gains IMO (how long do you need to do that to breathe heavy 
). It’s almost like a gimmic: get your vo2 gains without actually riding that hard! No more lung busting workouts, “train smarter - not harder!”
Over the last 2 years, I started doing them at the same 145-150% ‘on’, but 60-65% ‘off’. It’s a much harder workout, obviously, but you just got to do more sets and aim to stretch the reps within each set as the fitness builds.
Many ways to skin a cat, but I am a big advocate of the really high to really low (or endurance)
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Veronique did her research based on running so the intensity needs some tweaking to get right. In my experience >125% is good but there’s likely some individual variation. The benefit of following this protocol compared to longer Norwegian fours etc. Is that it’s easier to accumulate more tiz.
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I have started doing my 30 / 30’s (or any high intensity, short duration interval like VO2 max) at a pace / effort that feels like the max effort I can do for the interval time / recovery period.
That said, if you are new to TR, the early workouts for a given high-intensity training zone tend to be relatively easy but quickly ramp up in difficulty. So if this was your first 30/30 workout on TR, just keep going and things will definitely become more difficult.
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The hardest repeatable effort you can do. DONT look at Hr, DONT just try for X%. Put in slope mode and crush yourself. The last 30sec should be horrible. If its not your going too easy. Just go HARD
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This is the way.
Granted 30/30s can also help train VO2max, you’re forced to work much more aerobically doing 30/15s or 40/20s, so it really does depend on what the intent is. I give people roughly 5min power +/- as a notional power target and most sets they’re there for 6-8+ minutes and they do it 2-4 times.
30/30s at 120% of FTP (or really any set % of FTP) are a waste IMO. Go as hard as you can. Repeat until finished.
Neither set is ideal for VO2 training, IMO, but all roads lead to Rome.
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Like The Roadman Podcast (on YT) says Michael Barry told him - ‘go until you see Jesus’?!
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For how I prescribe 30/30 40/20 etc intervals it’s max. I don’t use them as vo2 work for obvious reasons.
You essentially go all out for 30s, recover for 30s and repeat. It’s really fun 
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It’s not unusual to find 30/30’s an easy workout. There is substantial individual variation of perceived exertion during those intervals at 120%…and I share your experience that 30/30’s don’t feel that hard & recently completed a 30/30 session that was +1.1 to my VO2max workout level…a ‘stretch’ workout…and it just doesn’t seem that hard. For me, I get better adaptation from hard start VO2max intervals. If I’m doing 30/30s it’s because I’m tired of doing long interval endurance work.
On the other hand, some people really get blasted by 30/30s & probably not because they are wimps…probably because they just have a little different physiology or training history. We’re all a little different.
So, if you’re in search of a more challenging VO2max workout, check out my thread on the anatomy of a 15 minute VO2max interval (another innovation from Veronique). Or maybe one of the excellent threads on this forum regarding hard start VO2max intervals.
If you really want to target VO2max, I think 30/30s might not be the best approach. 30/30s are great to sharpen up your VO2max over the course of several weeks…target enzymatic and transporter changes. For longer term VO2max improvement, refer to @empiricalcycling excellent VO2max series & their recommendations for using VO2max work to do a little cardiac remodelling. And if you want to employ another little understood peripheral long term VO2max adaptation, refer to Kyle Thompson’s work at Guelph.
@wshender here is some more info you may find useful. This is a paper from Bent Ronnestad investigating different VO2max training protocols for a group of very well trained cyclists. He found that short intervals were superior…so maybe the way they did short intervals is more suited to your physiology. Two main differences between what we do on TR and what Bent did in this paper:
1.) More intensity. The 30s on was done at ~94% of MAP. That is probably more like 130% or 135% of FTP, but if you want to really dial it in do a ramp test, record your highest 1min power during the ramp test, then do your 30s interval at ~94% or 95% of that work rate.
2.) Shorter recover between intervals. These cyclists were doing 30/15s. I think @Helvellyn already suggested this.
In the study, 20 minute power and VO2max @ 4mmol went up for the short interval group and actually went down for the long interval group. So that’s something to consider. Look at Table 2 in the attached link.
BUT DO NOT FORGET TO CHECK Figure 1 and contemplate the individual results. In both sets of athletes there are athletes that saw improvement and athletes that saw decreases in performance. So individual variation matters & it’s important to find out/understand which sort of athlete you are.
There’s a couple issues I have with this study but the one that jumps out to me is that the short interval group got a total of twice the recovery than the long interval group (7.5 vs 15 minutes). I know if I tried to do 4x5 VO2 intervals with 2.5 min rest I would be struggling to actually work hard enough in the second half of the workout to get the intended adaptations.
That being said…it does show that you can do more ‘short-short’ type workouts and get improvements in VO2 and TT tests so it shouldn’t be completely ignored.
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More investigation is required! 
I’m just trying to give the original poster some other VO2max ideas that might be more suitable.
But, also, get everybody to think about this: In the short interval group there is at least one athlete that would say that workout worked really well…but also one athlete that would say that workout did not work at all. And also, in the long interval group there is at least one athlete that would say that workout worked really well…but also at least one athlete that would say that workout did not work at all.
Even though the best study ever may find one method is better than the other…it may still not be true for an individual athlete.
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Totally agree. Assuming the study design is good, I think of these studies as (and have heard them described as) a good place to start looking. So if a study says intervention A is better than B, it doesn’t mean everybody should always do A and never B. But rather for most people, A is maybe a better place to start and would be more likely to work while B might be good for those that A doesn’t.
Hey there,
There’s been some great discussion in this thread! I just wanted to leave a note that if you wanted to find some on/off style VO2 Max workouts that feel more challenging, you could try using Workout Alternates or our Workout Library.
It sounds like you’ll want to search for something with a higher Workout Level. Once you complete that workout successfully, your corresponding Progression Levels will update, and Adaptive Training will dial in the rest of your plan accordingly.
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Hey everyone, that has replied to this thread thank you for your feedback. The feedback has definitely given me some things to consider. Also being a new TR user, I’m still learning what TR has to offer, and this conversation has been helpful.
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But also cos they be wimps too… 
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