IIRC, in mid 2017 Mavic created their own standard for road wheels and road tires. That was about the time I adopted road tubeless.
one article here:
Apples and oranges. Standards are not regulations. Standards are what industry creates to ensure safety and performance so that regulators donāt have to step in and force regulations.
Standards are how rim manufacturers ensure tire manufacturers hold to known specifications and vice versa. Itās how to ensure the parts work together correctly. If they can ensure their parts are safe when the mating part is compliant, then they can tell consumers to buy parts that meet the standard. And warn them not to buy non-compliant products. Even better would be to have a third party certify compliance.
You know, like USB, HDMI, etc. These were not created by regulators, though regulators can require compliance to them.
Enve is doing the right thing and validation specific tires. But thereās no saying how wide the tolerances are for each tire, not where the tire they tested falls within those tolerances and the tire maker can change those tolerances at any time without anyoneās knowledge.
Can you explain how you want to see āindustry coordinationā from an industry where there is no regulating body to ensure such coordination?
That article says Mavic even submitted UST to ETRTO and ISO. I can only assume that they were trying to charge for UST licensing. Otherwise, I see no reason that they didnāt adopt UST. Thatās a shame.
The same way every industry does it. All you need is a few companies to agree to do so.
Option 1: Create an industry organization (thereās already ETRTO and ISO) which is open to any company that wants to join. Example from automotive is the Society of Automotive Engineers. SAE creates many standards to avoid regulations, increase standardization of parts, reduce risk and reduce cost. Almost every large automotive company recognizes the value of this and participates.
Option 2: A few manufactures get together and make their own little group (special interest group) that creates a standard. Mavic did this on their own with UST, all that needed to happen was a few others decide to join and use it also. Fire whatever reason they didnāt (I speculate they tried to charge license fees that were too costly). If just Enve and Zipp got together to make a standard for tires and told tire manufacturers they had to meet it if they wanted to be on the approved list, Iām sure a few companies would step up to comply.
Good luck with thatā¦you are talking about an industry that canāt agree on BB āstandardsā, spent years deliberating IS or Post mounts for MTB discs (and ended up āadoptingā both), etc. UST was once the standard for MTB tubelessā¦then Stanās came along and upended everything.
There is very little cooperation of coordination between suppliers in the industry. Everyone believes if they develop the ārightā standard, they can gain a competitive advantage, so why should they share it with their rivals?
Wrong. You are confusing multiple competing standards with lack of standards. You can buy flat mount brakes and they will mount to your flat mount frame. Same with BBs, stay within a particular standard and itās fine, aside from quality control issues. Itās OK, but less ideal to have multiple standards.
But no standard, on critical safety interfaces between parts from different suppliers, is a recipe for disaster.
Right now there is no standard for tubeless or hookless, aside from buying the rim, tape and tire from the same company.
In most industries the companies are not to compete on safety and security. They all want safe and secure products and would rather compete on features, price, etc.
Look at Garmin making ANT+ an open standard that benefits Wahoo and Hammerhead quite a bit. Same with the BT versions of the trainer control and sensor protocols. Consumers donāt want to be locked into one company for GPS, smart trainer, and power meter. So Garmin made their ANT protocol open and license free with ANT+ because on the whole itās a net benefit to Garmin.
Itās time we demanded similar for tubeless and hookless. It wouldnāt stop anybody from competing on tire rolling resistance, puncture resistance, aero rims, etc. In fact it would help reduce validation, risk and confusion.
The bicycle industry already does this for rims using ETRTO, they just need to do it for tires too (and ensure the standard is safe). Itās just a small step further.
By the way, thereās already at least one lawsuit over tubeless tire safety. Thereās potential money lost by not having and adhering to an industry standard. Itās not a perfect defense, but being able to say that your products comply with a widely used standard helps to limit liability and damages.
I think you are misinterpreting my postsā¦I am not defending the current state of hookless.
However, I am intimately familiar with how the bike industry works in these matters and the scenarios you have laid out are just not likely.
I think you have also grossly misstated the idea that there are āno standardsā when clearly the ETRTO standards existā¦.but to further emphasize my point, either Zipp or ENVE (canāt remember which one) have already said that they wonāt adhere to those standards as they pertain to recommending a 25mm tote on a 23mm internal width rim.
Apparently there arenāt (werenāt) standards for the tire.
I am pretty sure the new ETRTO guidelines include specs for tires as well as wheels.
But you keep skipping over my points so Iām just gonna move on now.
As far as I can tell without actually purchasing the spec, it only has requirements for rim bead seat diameter and suggested combinations of rim and tire width. (Possibly also G height, the height of the wall measured from the BSD). Thereās no mention of tire bead diameter nor stretch in the articles that I could find and the Slow Twitch sticker specifically said there wasnāt one in 2019.
Rode my giant tcr with the standard pr2 disc wheelset with conti 5000s tr 30mm, used the silca and sram calculator for pressure. Because of my weight (93 kg) I was close the maximum pressure in terms of specs.
Half way through the the race, I had a massive blowout at my rearwheel in a corner, I crashed, losing some skin on my lower leg before ending in the grass on the side of the road.
At first I thought it made a steering error and since i was on the outside of group, I considered myself lucky not to have taken anybody out of the race, but myself.
Then a marshall came, and told me, he thought i blew my tire, and was surprised my tire was on and still under pressure.
Not having any experience with racing tubeless or hookless rims, I looked for information, about this phenomenon. Turns out that for heavier riders with less wide tires, this setup can cause this to happen.
Needless to say, I went back the lbs and bought some hooked rims. Probably not the solution people want to hear, but I ride a lot, and this incident made me not trusting my wheelsetup.
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That was 4 years agoā¦ā¦
I might be wrong, and I could not find reliable information on the internet, but Iām 99% sure those wheels are HOOKED.
Iām not confident about the model, but quite sure my TCR came with those very same wheels. They are tubeless ready, bot not HOOKLESS.
I replaced them for a pair of SLR2 36, which is hookless, and Iām also using silca and sram calculator. Iām 69.5kg and riding 28mm GP5K STR they recommend 55 front and 60 psi rear.
Waitā¦did the tire blow or not blow? Iām not following.
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The pr2 rims on the 2021 tcr are hookless, and the tire did not blow out, it burbed out a fair amount of the sealant, while tire pressure was as prescribed. Due to my weight, I checked both with silca and sram.
The tire didnāt stay in place while cornering at high speed. While the conti 5000s TR (the 2023 spec) are compatible with the rims. Checked that on the giant website.
Something seems horribly wrong with your setup. Iām 85kg, run the 5000str at 65-70psiā¦have thousands of miles on them including multiple critsā¦I have never burped air with a road tireā¦
Oh alsoā¦burping is very different than the tire blowing off the rim. Burping would be a product of too little pressure, not too much.
Added: This is wild speculation, but a possible explanation is you had a puncture you dodnt notice and the tires quit on you when they got down to 30psi or something in a hard corner.
Whatever it is, iām not using the wheels anymore. Just lost the trust on the hookless rims.
Too bad loved the tubeless setup and the stiffness of the rims. But good it works for you.
Iām not against hookless rims, this is just my anecdotal contribution to this topic.
As far as something seriously wrong with my setup, I doubt it, hence my mistrust against the hookless setup with my weight and the rides I do.
You do youš
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Yea thinking about this longerā¦assuming you had some kind of reasonable pressure in them (likeā¦40-100), I think the acute issue is more likely. Burping on the road isnt really a thing. Itās not uncommon in CX where youāre running like 20psi and the tire routinely folds completely over.
I get the mistrust thing though, thatās tricky. For what itās worthā¦I dont truly trust ANY tire. I wont take a corner if a blowout will cause me to veer into traffic for example.
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