I think what hookless is missing is a dedicated tire. So far the resounding answer from both wheel and tire manufacturers about whether their tire is compatible with their hookless wheel even when tested is “probably.” I’m a fan of kenda tires both on and off road and when looking to see if their gravel tires are hookless compatible they give a blurb that boils down to “Yes it will probably work, but check with the wheel manufacturer.” And I’m sure when checking the wheel company will bounce it back and say check with the tire company so that everybody’s butt is covered and it’s still nebulous. I even have a set of Vittoria terreno dry that have embossed on the sidewall “for hooked rims” which is great to see because there’s no probably there. Just as when tubeless was becoming a thing it was impressed upon the public that non-tubeless tires would not work for that purpose I believe there needs to be a new “hookless only” specific tire for road if this system is going to work reliably. Certainly Vittoria doesn’t want more bad press for their tires blowing off hookless rims and if hookless is here to stay why not make a corsa hookless? Just as tire makers design tires around a certain rim shape and width it would behoove them to make a tire designed solely around a hookless interface.
In tandem would it hurt wheel makers to have written on the side of the wheel the max pressure just like the tires that are being put on them?
Why wouldn’t this hypothetical “hookless only” tire work perfectly fine on hooked rims? What design feature do you suppose would preclude them from use with a rim hook?
@kevistraining beat me to it but removing the rounded bead and putting on a flat “bead” that’s maybe a touch longer and maybe textured for better contact with the flat edges of the rim. Definitely something for an engineer to tackle but It’s just a guess that better friction and surface tension might help with adherence of the tire to the hookless area. Whether that area also needs kevlar or aramid for reinforcement is curious but it’s a wonder if such a tire design would cut down on catastrophic burps.
I also rembers a couple of year ago a Total Energy rider had a blow out on a Roval (hooked) exposing his pink latex inner tube which caught my attetion. A hooked, inner tube set blew out, and I didn’t see 1 line about it.
Yea. Not trying to be dismissive, especially since I’m obviously not concerned enough about this to read all the ongoing thoughts on the interwebs…but my only real contribution here is I get evil disc brake vibes from the scary rim arguments.
There is no denying that stuff happens - parts break, old school mechanics put in too much pressure, things in the road are hit, and tubulars used to roll off at a surprising rate in the middle of a hot July.
The reason hookless is getting heat is because a tire blowing off used to be a 1 in 10,000 event and now it seems to be a 1 in 100 event. Making those numbers up obviously but the frequency has increased dramatically.
Maybe I’ve lived a sheltered experience. I’ve run road tubeless on multiple wheelsets for 10s of thousands of miles, ride with lots of people on tubeless, and have never seen nor heard of a tubeless mishap like what you guys are describing.
The issue is hookless, not tubeless. And one persons postive anecdote (yours) doesn’t mean a lot.
It still happens at a small less than single digit percentage rate so not everybody is going to experience it. It’s not acceptable because a failure of this kind is a potential injury.
And one can do it “right”:
buy the right tire
make sure it’s wide enough - like 30mm+
use way less than 72psi - like 50
don’t have an undersized, out of erto spec, rim
(It’s a lot for the average consumer to get right. And what was the benefit of hookless to that consumer in the first place?)
And some people, maybe you, will get it all right just out of luck - the tires and pressure you like are all just perfect for tubeless and the rims you happened to buy.
We do have some numbers. Previously posted but you choose to ignore:
“While I know that hookless really is generally robust in the larger tire sizes as your experience has shown, I will say that in the 100+ tires we’ve tested over the last few years on 40+ wheels, we’ve had 6 blowoffs in tire seating, 3 blowoffs below the 110% ISO test, and 1 blowoff of a wheel just leaning against a wall. Every single one of them was on a hookless rim and following ETRTO guidelines. Or stated from the other side, we’ve never had a hooked tubeless blow off, and that’s from a larger sample size and includes combinations that violate ETRTO in the pursuit of performance gains.”
Also, we have been having a blow off once a week in the pro peloton. And people on this forum have reported multiple blow offs at their group ride scene.
It’s enough “data” for me as buying a hookless set of rims over hooked would provide me ZERO benefit.
Why should I buy an experimental product when a reliable product exists for ZERO benefit? Why should I trust Zipp when their guidelines do not fully comply with ETRTO guidelines for ZERO benefit?
I don’t think is comparable to the disc brakes debate. Rim and disc brakes have pros and cons, but there are a lot of benefits to the consumer.
In the case of hookless, the benefits for consumers are less tangible and potentially more dangerous.
The number of cases is very small but it’s hard to get a good idea based on it. I don’t think this is what should drive the discussion, in favor or against, it’s anecdotal evidence after all. However, we shouldn’t ignore them either and we also don’t have available data to refute claims that they’re unsafe.
Personally, I don’t think the problem is the technology itself. I believe hookless can be safe. I don’t know if we’re there yet. The margin of error is too small. The cycling industry is not particularly strict with tolerances and quality control. We have to trust wheel manufacturers and tire manufacturers independently.
Btw, I have a set of hookless wheels. I use wide tires and low pressure, enough to think I shouldn’t worry. I’m not necessarily against it.
I think you could equally say the same about your claim the problem is hookless.
Like I say, there were plenty of hooked failures in the peloton as well.
And before that they were using tubulars and inner tubes. I’ve yet to see any numbers regarding tyre failures in the pro peloton.
While the numbers you quoted from Josh are alarming, the chap who posted on YouTube about his 25mm tyre blowing off a lightweight rim shows there are manufacturers clearly not making rims to spec - that’s a manufacturer problem, not a standard/technology problem.
While I agree that presents a problem for the consumer, that doesn’t make all hookless bad.
Them being cheaper to design and produce with lower reject rates means consumers in theory get cheaper and lighter wheels.
That was certainly the case with first generation of Zipp hookless and that was at a time when component prices were going through the roof.
You also get a stronger sidewall, again in theory.
There’s claims about aero, but I bet they are less than marginal if they exist at all.
Whether those things are worth it when you can go and buy an all-singing and dancing lightweight aero wheel from china for $1.50, is another matter. That’s a market that still doesn’t appeal to many though.