Help! I'm stuck

We are on the same page. That’s exactly what I said the whole discussion.

It doesn’t make much sense to follow generic prescriptions without looking at your own situation. Suggestion like “you must take 2 weeks off” oversimplify the issue and miss the point. In that case it’s about getting a mental break and allowing for proper recovery. Though that doesn’t mean that you cannot go out for easy rides or do some hiking, swimming, running etc. On the contrary, activities like that help to mitigate the fitness loss and perhaps also help to rekindle the love for cycling.

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Another data point - I was looking at my progression in XERT which tells me that I may actually still be progressing, despite struggling to maintain my FTP via the TR ramp tests. I don’t know much about Xert and I just have it set to pull my workouts from Strava - so not sure how to read this graph. I just see that the yellow line (threshold power) keeps moving up. I also don’t know if any of this can be trusted. Anyway, this makes me wonder… is the TR FTP telling me the right story? TR ramp tests are at a plateau, even declining somewhat, while here I still see progress :-S. Anyone using Xert or has experience with it to tell me what I’m looking at is still progress? Why would my TR FTP stall, while this keeps showing progress?



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Good discussion so far.

one thing nobody seems to have mentioned yet: on your longer rides, make sure you are eating enough. As you get stronger, your energy demands increase. You may be on a ride that is not super taxing in terms of percent of FTP but a kilojoule is a kilojoule and you need to replace that. If you are cruising along at 200+ watts for four hours and not eating enough, you can find yourself in a deep hole. This affects performance later in the workout and your ability to go hard again the next day.

on the SS vs. zone 2 debate: I also am not aware of any studies with conclusive evidence comparing the two, but there plenty of survey data showing that a strong predictor of success as an endurance athlete is training volume. And if volume gets high enough, you get to a point where most of it will be zone 2. Now ignore this if you don’t have that kind of time anyway (it’s irrelevant to you in that case), but there’s probably a reason why the pros go big big big on the volume.

And finally, if the guy whose “claims don’t hold up” is the Evoq blog guy then i have to say i kind of agree. He’s clearly a great athlete but as a coach, he has things to learn (as do we all).

@anon13702412, @jwellford, @MI-XC

I came across this XERT article which talks about SS and how it affects people differently based on the delta between the LT1/LTP and LT2/FTP numbers. Ideally the SS power target seems to be below LT1 as otherwise it may be too stressful, suggesting to lower the intensity to below LTP and slightly increase the work time.

In my case, LTP sits at 78% of my FTP - SS target sits above that… as I’m looking to follow the recommendation to do the SS HV Base next, I’m wondering if I should slightly drop the intensity to below my LTP and increase the work duration (I guess this would then become mostly Z2/endurance sessions)…

Any insights, opinions or experience with this? Would I still get the same benefits? Or perhaps even more benefit?

Another thing they mention is that SS work is ideal for time trialists, but not necessarily for road racers for which they suggest a 80:20 polarized approach. As of what time commitment would a polarized approach make sense?

Haven’t tried Polarized training. TR programming has worked great for me in my cycling career and SSBHV has broken my plateau from 2020. So I’m not looking for anything else. Careful with paralysis by analysis. If you go searching you’ll find support no matter what training method you choose. Go with whatever will keep you consistent and motivated. When you’ve maxed that out, look for training marginal gains.

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You mean I might not have made optimal progress this year because I started with SSB → SusPB → SSB, switched to high volume z2 when the pandemic started, then SSB → custom polarized → my current custom plan?? :thinking:

I realized when looking at my calendar that my year could be considered unstructured structure or structured unstructure. :rofl: At least if my FTP remained roughly constant during the year I saw improvement in applying that power with PRs across a variety of time durations.

To the OP: my option might not be very popular, but you’ve been riding for 1-2 years and have had great gains. Cycling / endurance sports are about improvement over years and years, not months. Plateauing for a bit is not a big deal. I wasn’t training with structure at the time, which could have been a cause, but there were long (2+ year) periods where I plateaued or gained 10w on my FTP. At some point you will need to increase stimulus or change things up to make more progress, but it sounds like you have been making other improvements during this period. Again, the progress you’ve made so far is tremendous and I wish I could still make that kind of progress. I hope you find it very satisfying when looking back on it.

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It’s hard to compare us average people to elites. You have to question why you do sweet spot and why and elite might do sweet spot. Sweet spot is nothing magical. For the vast majority of us it’s a form of threshold training. In time crunched plans it’s introduced earlier to make up for the lack of volume.

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Based on the suggestions in this thread, would it be a correct statement that when doing HV SS base, there are longer term benefits to replace a scheduled SS ride by an Endurance ride of equal TSS to improve my aerobic fat burning engine, should I have the time? Would this be worth the investment?

Yes, the longer you can push your long ride the better IMO. You won’t be lacking long SS work, but one even longer ride at a lower intensity is an excellent substitution that I think will absolutely benefit you more in the long run.

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Sunday’s SS is a good workout to substitute for a long z2 ride.

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I’m a bit late to the party but my 2 cents:

I agree with the people who have said to take a short break off. You’ve come really far in the last year and you’ll continue to be successful going forward. At some point there is a benefit to taking some time off to reflect, let the body come back in balance, recover, etc and this might be that point.

It seems like the idea of having time off gives you some stress and this makes me feel like you need it. Its ok! Cycling is a multi year endeavor and something you can do until you’re like 80yr old. Take some time and enjoy the ride!

If you can’t get your mind around taking time off then consider going “off plan” for a few weeks. Ride for fun and try and keep your TSS at a manageable level.

Not being able to push bigger watts indicates to me that your legs are just tired.

I agree that if you return to SSB then change the Sunday workout to a longer Z2 effort. Also consider dropping Friday Z2 form the SSBHV plan so that you’re fresh for Sat big workout.

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UPDATE - 2 weeks later

so, I took ~2 weeks off from structured training to recover and rest up.

During this time, I went out for an easy 10k run and did a couple of rides. First week I did two, totalling 351 TSS. Last week I did an easy Z2 ride and a virtual climb of the Stelvio. Yesterday, I did another Ramp test, followed by a 13 minute sprint effort. Last week’s TSS was 277.

The first week was really hard to get to terms with this break from structured training, but it did feel like a relief, physically and mentally. Last week, I stopped caring about any possible loss of fitness etc. Yesterday, I was eager to get started again, hence already did my Ramp test to be ready to reset my training today.

My FTP result was the same as two weeks ago, although it did feel a lot better.

I also used this time-off to get a proper bike-fit done, which resulted in a bunch of changes: my saddle height was increased by 2.5 cm( +3%), and moved slightly forward. My stem was shortened by 1cm and handlebar width reduced by 3cm. My cleats were properly adjusted as well. These few changes feel a lot better than before.

Today, I started the SSB HV1 plan with Geiger+2. To my surprise this felt way too easy for an SS session. Looking back, I noticed my avg HR was ~10bpm lower than the previous times I did this one. Today, I spend most of the SS intervals around mid Z3 HR, while usually, my HR should be high Z3, low Z4. My NP was also slightly higher, even though my FTP was lower than last time. I’m not sure what to make of this…
Any thoughts? Is this just because I’m more rested/recovered? Or could the bike fit have anything to do with this?

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You have lost top power, hence your FTP from the ramp test can be in fact little lower than your FTP from longer test would be. It is very common to gain power after the brake.

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You shed some fatigue and recovered, your heart rate will go down as a result. Bike fit may have something to do with your FTP result as you may have some muscles engaged that you weren’t before and they may take some time to get up to speed.

Like has been said above. I’ve been riding for a dozen years. I’m stronger now than I was 1-2 years in. It takes time to build enough of a base to be able to to the added volume and intensity to keep up with the progressive overload. And even then, you will have phases in your training. Embrace the lower scores because you will come back stronger. My FTP from last year at my peak was 302. I was able to maintain it for probably 3ish training blocks. Then it got to be more than I could bear, took a hit back to 295 for some base work and then after a couple rounds of base, was back at 304 feeling better than i did at any time last summer. If you don’t allow for the steps back, your body will strain with the steps forward and you won’t progress.

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I think doing no physical activity during your break would send you nuts. You are not a couch potato, and mentally trying to be one would not be at all good. I think a social ride to the cafe with friends/ a bit of hiking, or any other hobby you have that isn’t “training” .
I’ve just come off a month of no TR or structured training, and just did 2 -3 easy rides of under 1 hour. Also some walking and the usual jobs looking after the horses.
It wasn’t planned, but I hit a real low spot after failing some workouts towards the back end of SPBMV. Also our CX National champs were cancelled till 2022, and another lockdown caused me anger/frustration/ and lost mojo, added to feeling tired, coping with DOMS ,and a Bakers Cyst that is causing grief. I decided the only way to get over all this was to take a break, and plan to start SSBLV on 30 January. Things are going better now, and I am able to do the workouts at the FTP that is 30w higher than when i started TR in March '20.
I am not comparing my experience with yours. But some of the things you listed are similar, and even if you don’t feel tired, or depressed, it does sound as if you have plateaued and need a change in your training. The other posts on here have made suggestions, better than I can offer.
Keep us posted with your progress :smiley:

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So… I’m almost 4 weeks into SSB HV1.

First graph: daily workout sessions along with my morning RHR → details in data set below, as well as by week
Second: Fitness/Fatigue/Form chart from intervals.icu

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I have swapped out a few scheduled rides by some outdoor rides (road and MTB) - green bars.
Last Saturday, I have replaced a 2h SS session by a 3h Endurance session (Big Mountain).
I am also doing functional and core strength work 3x/week and daily 15 minute yoga sessions for mobility and stretching.

Some thoughts/questions/notes:

  • I think I’ve been overdoing it a bit by adding those outdoor rides as these have added quite a bit of TSS. Last week I even hit a TSS of 945! I’m worried I may be digging a hole here for me, however…
  • despite overshooting my target TSS, my RHR is only slowly creeping up, which is expected given the gradual increase of volume. I don’t see signs of overtraining (yet).
  • decoupling for all my rides has been minimal - mostly between -1% and +1%, even my outdoor rides and the 3h endurance ride.
  • as sessions build up throughout the week, my RPE for the same target power increases, as well as my HR/pwr ratio, until I hit a rest/recovery day, after which this drops again.
  • I have noticed on my outdoor rides, that my RPE has gone up compared to before starting SSB HV
  • I definitely feel pretty flat at the moment, ie most power above FTP seems to be gone (this became quite clear during my last MTB ride).

This weekend, I may do 1 or 2 more rides, which will overshoot my target TSS once again, before having a deload/recovery week next week. I’m very curious to see where my FTP will be following this recovery week…

Anyway, I just wanted to share where I am at at the moment. I welcome any advice, suggestions, feedback, comments. Thanks!

I did my FTP ramp test today. I’ve completed SSB HV1 and starting SSB HV2 this week. My FTP has remained the same.

I think my recovery has been fine throughout SSB HV1 and the recovery week, at least based on my RHR and HRV values.

Is this what I should expect after putting in all this work? Or would it be too early in the cycle to see any gains/adaptations?

Or, should I slightly bump my FTP going into SSB HV2 and see how that goes? (Assuming I’m testing poorly on the ramp test due to lack of VO2Max or work above threshold over the last 5-6w)

Thoughts? Experiences? What can I expect?

:pray:

I never saw a real bump in FTP after SSBHV. Especially not via the ramp protocol.

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When reading your thread, it seems like you have had great progress, except for some setbacks recently.

Your FTP, be it 250 or 280 is great. Recognize the achievement. Few people get there.

  • Gains are harder the fitter you become, trust the process!
  • All gains doesn’t equal improved FTP, e.g. improved capability to sustain a certain effort over longer durations. Looking at SSB, I would think that one key expected output is ability to hold power close to FTP for longer durations, rather than the intense effort of FTP-testing. Obviously, there should be certain correlation.
  • Being / feeling stuck for a couple of months might be coincidental. Testing is not easy to control. Your previous tests might have been at particular good days, well rested, caffeine, right time of day, best music, great mental attitude, low stress, great cooling, muscles flooded with nitrate… and recent tests at somewhat poor or normal days. What difference will it make if you go train at 250 instead of 280? You might miss some gains, but you might also avoid burning yourself out. I think the potential reward is not at all in proportion to the risk. You might lose some small gains until next time if you are better than current estimated FTP, but if things feel too easy, just increase intensity.
  • Consider alternative evaluations: how does my ride feel? Is it easier now? Can I sustain bigger efforts?

Looking at your fitness-fatigue chart above, not surprised you felt flat. You have been increasing your load. Not so strange that RPE goes up if you are detrained.p, either.

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response to training is individual, so it is hard to answer and also difficult without looking at the bigger picture. Making week3 a big overload week was an interesting decision.

FWIW when I did SSB-1 HV it kicked off a new season of training and first time training indoors. Started at 236W FTP and finished at 247W for a 4.7% increase. Not too surprising as:

  • the previous season my FTP was in 255-280 range
  • I had taken a 4 week break before starting SSB-1

Always hard to draw parallels to someone else, and I think you need to look at bigger picture. Just ‘putting in all this work’ isn’t the best way to think about it, instead it is often about how that work fits into the big picture (timing is everything) and how you respond to training.

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