thanks. but does not work for me. Intensity is way too low to get my heart rate up.
Hi all, taking a stab at some hard start workouts.
In the 2 workouts so far, my starts range from 195% down to about 140% near the end. These are ramping up breathing nicely, but I’m struggling to keep it above FTP later in the interval.
What’s the view of the hivemind - am I leaving some benefits on the table by starting out too hard, and tailing off too much? (I suppose the alternative looks more like the final 2 intervals I did in ERG at the end of today’s workout.
Also, I consider VO2 to be a weakness and I didn’t hit all durations I was targetting. Should I add longer RBI, or as long as I can barely remember my own name, is it all good?
2 Likes
In general I would suggest that hard-starts do not need to be performed above max aerobic power (MAP) , which is the maximum power at which VO2max will be achieved, in the shortest duration (~2min).
2 Likes
For me, I limit how hard my start is so I can keep power above FTP for the interval. My logic is that I want to stress both my cardio system and legs with an effort that’s above FTP.
If I start too hard - similar to you - my power drops close to or below FTP - mainly due to my cardio system not being able to keep up. Maybe a VO2max physiologist would say thats OK, since the main goal anyway is to stress the cardio system. But I’d also like to train my legs to be able to put out power at VO2max-type efforts, and not just have my cardio system be operating at VO2max.
1 Like
Yep, that was what I was getting at. I’m sure either way it’s good training, but want to try and maximise the impact. I think with a bit of a reduction in the hard start, I could compensate somewhat with more power later on.
@jarsson it may be that I don’t have a good handle on my MAP, but I think the intervals wouldn’t feel maximal (at least not as early) if I constrained them to c450w. Tomorrow is consecutive day 3 though, so anything in Z5 will probably waste me pretty quickly - perhaps I’ll try and follow one of the hard start workout prescriptions a bit closer and see how it goes…
Perhaps both are too hard. I used to really crank it out, like 145+ rpm/200% FTP hard starts. This lead to power dropping below FTP then I’d have to work to bring it back up and average everything out.
Try ~150% FTP and ~120rpm hard start, see what that does to the remainder of interval power. You’ll have to experiment – go hard/fast enough that it gets your HR up in relatively short time (1min) but not so hard that you dive below threshold power.
Good luck!
1 Like
Here’s mine from today. I do these in erg mode to help maintain my pacing - and not go out too hard.
They work very well for getting my HR up and then maintaining it. For the “flat” 2 minutes in the 2nd half of each interval, the following were my heart rates:
1st interval: 92% of max
2nd: 93%
3rd: 94%
4th: 96%
5th: 97%
6th: 97%
1 Like
As someone who occasionally plays a VO2max physiologist on the internet, I’d suggest you could try a lower peak and a slower/longer ramp-down-rate of the Hard-Start. Yes your perceived effort/breathing/HR might not climb as quickly, but you should then be able to perform more work over a longer duration above FTP during the rest of the interval. You may ultimately spend longer duration near VO2max, or at least longer above FTP (which might in fact be more important).
Working below our metabolic steady state (for which FTP is an estimate) basically means we are “recovering” (at least acutely compared to > FTP) and no longer accumulating as strong an adaptive stimulus. The lower and longer below FTP, the faster and greater that recovery, the lower the ultimate stimulus. At least directionally. So our first priority should be working above FTP. Our second priority could either be higher intensity or longer interval duration. Opinions vary. My opinion is to prioritize longer work duration. Both are totally plausible. My apologies for handwaving hard on this explanation to avoid adding another 1000 words tonight 
Those workouts from @DaveWh are great, but they will be even greater-er by customizing them to your own strengths/limiters. I think there’s a link up there somewhere with some advice on customizing hard-start workouts 
6 Likes
Not perfect, but think this was more in the goldilocks zone compared to my previous too hard start, and sharply tapering efforts. I set out around 150% as suggested and reduced slightly for the later intervals. 1st half were 3.5 mins, 2nd half 3 mins with 3 mins RBI. I wanted to go longer, but this is day 3 and my legs are fried!
3 Likes
6.5 min VO2max intervals! Sounds plenty hard to me. Nice work 
1 Like
I wish! I meant the first 3 intervals were 3.5 mins and the 2nd 3 intervals were 3 mins long. So 19.5 mins in total 
1 Like
I think it was first half of workout was 3.5min intervals…etc. But still – nice work and success! 
1 Like
A great podcast here:
“ There were no significant difference between the HIIT and SIT group when looking at time trial performance.
However, if one would only look at those in the HIIT group that performed longer intervals (> 4min), then a significant increase in time trial performance of about 2 % could be seen compared to the SIT group.”
1 Like
Does that mean 5min hard-start intervals?? 
1 Like
Sounds like it!
I don’t think I’d be able to do 5 min intervals with just extending the intervals in the hard start workouts I’ve created. The 110% of FTP for the latter part of each interval would be too high.
I’ll play around with a lower % - maybe somewhere around 105-107%.
1 Like
Let’s keep in mind, the major reason to use a hard-start is to try and extend the effective work duration at the target intensity. The hard-start is a means to an end. If longer work duration is most beneficial to performance (and I think it is. Look for more work coming out on the topic from Rosenblat soon) and if we can’t sustain longer durations when performing a hard-start, then we should modify or completely drop the hard-start.
Or, we might be using hard-starts to simulate a race attack situation, in which case the physiological stimulus might be a secondary priority. We should just be intentional with how we are programming our workouts and what we want to get from them.
6 Likes
If you look really closely you can see where my will to live got WRECKED.
Jesus christ by the second interval I was asking myself why oh why didn’t I do bluebell or something before.
KM is a sadist. Cause this is definitely really really hard. (But this might also be because I’ve not done any work at or above FTP in months now, all I’ve done is sweetspot). Definitely going to do 2.5minute intervals next time. 3 is just not on the cards right now. How on earth do people do hardstart and last 5 minutes.
4 Likes
Longer intervals can sometimes feel more manageable. Like 4x5’ vs 10x2’ - sure 5’ is long but once the first one is done you can tell yourself 25% done, just three more to go, instead of “oh god not nine more…”
1 Like
What’s your maximum HR?
Bingo. Been there, done that. Yeah, takes a bit before your brain & body are willing to let you repeatedly abuse them.
Yes. As a bonus, there are less hard starts if you choose longer intervals.
When I was an anaerobic superman I used to do a 3x8min continuous version of Rattlesnake and think nothing of it. Now…
FWIW — 30s hard start @ 145% and 115 cadence; 118% average power for interval…which seems completely alien to me these days! 
4 Likes