As deep and hard as you can. Spin the pedals and pray for survival. As long the vo2 breathing is there it’s good workout. Power is secondary metric if you do high cadence (probably you can do more power with lower cadence but there is also higher muscles strain and less venous return). If you can’t do 110 do 105 or 100 - as long the cadence is sustainable and higher you use normally. The second metric is HR tracking - you want it smooth with visible plateau - like in your case.
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I recall a few of these last season where I would almost fall over. The last workout of my block I literally got off the bike after the last interval and just laid in the nice grass on the side of the road for a few minutes before rolling Z2 for a little while.
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Since my 2017 article was linked on VO2max training, I just thought I’d offer a more contemporary perspective: that there are good reasons to think that high intensity interval training to improve performance does NOT need to be maximal.
There are good arguments that improvements to VO2max are related to exercise intensity. However, we need to recognise that improving VO2max is not necessarily synonymous with improving endurance performance. Let’s be clear what our goals are.
Not trying to takedown anyone in particular, but hearing comments like “blackout intervals” and “waterboarding” has me worried that training consistency (nevermind enjoyability!) might suffer in pursuit of making things hard, for hardness sake. Flexing a ‘no-pain-no-gain’ attitude seems very 1992-high-school-football-coach to me 
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I feel pretty confident saying that just doing the work consistently over time, minimising down-time from overtraining, under-motivation, injury, etc. and prioritising long-term sustainability rather than maximizing any single workout will produce better performance, health, and overall fitness outcomes.
Some discussion from a colleague’s meta-analysis.
*…at any intensity within the severe domain, ie. above FTP / CP / MLSS / etc.
- All studies in the meta-analysis used 2-3 HIIT sessions per week, for 2-10 weeks. So the improved outcomes with increasing number of sessions implies longer sustained training duration over greater number of weeks.
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100% agreed.
I made the waterboarding comment, but going back to your point above, going longer can sometimes be even HARDER than going higher power.
I would pay money to do shorter/higher power than longer/lower power when it comes to VO2…it just isn’t a great feeling.
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I can appreciate that. Funny though, I’m the exact opposite. I feel it’s easier to keep going, than to re-start. 3x8-min is both harder but also easier than 4x-6min, even though my avg power ends up pretty similar. But in both cases, I’m only going 8/10 RPE and saving a rep in the tank 
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This. 3 min intervals are hard but short enough to be ok’ish mentally and physically. 5 min intervals, even if the power is lower are a completely different level. And I hate everything 5 min (intervals and test) because it is short enough that you can go pretty hard but long enough that you regret that decision. 6-8 - I go more conservatively and they are easier than 5 min in my opinion.
I’d happily pay to do a max repeatable 4 x 8 rather a 4 x 4 EVERY time 
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So if I understood that meta analysis, it basically concludes 5 x 5m 2.5m rest, somewhere between FTP and MAP, done 2x per week, is essentially whats needed. I can work with that
Now how do I get AT to programme that in for me
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I wonder if the short vs long HIIT preference is associated with athlete phenotype / fiber typology differences?
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May I make a suggestion?
Don’t start your block the day after a 50-minute crit.
I planned to do 4x6… did 3x6, quality just wasn’t really there from the start as I struggled to maintain cadence and HR wouldn’t peg. I knew this was a risk, but with my work schedule right now I didn’t have many good options to get three in this week… so I’ll take this as my “intro/figuring things out again” workout, and move forward… aim for 4x6 on Wednesday.
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Yes, I think so - I think it depends on anaerobic capacity, but this is related to muscle mass/fibre type afaik. A higher anaerobic capacity makes multiple starts (and rests!) And shorter intervals preferable, because you can do the start of each interval anaerobically. Whether that is correct intentional training is debatable I think. There would be an argument that you should exactly avoid this to work more aerobically, so fast twitch = longer intervals, even if that is not a preference. On the flip side, maybe doing multiple hard starts “preserves” fast-twitch fibres better, as they are then tired, and less involved in aerobic work maybe?
I am virtually no fast twitch at all and the length of the interval for me is purely mental. Or maybe they are not developed, but my neuromuscular power is pretty week and 1 min power “moderate”. 5 min power is on an “exceptional” border in WKO.
I never do vo2 max intervals shorter than 3min.
3 minutes as hard as I can is ok. 4 min is pretty hard but I would call it a “sweet spot”. 5 min is for me the hardest - short enough that I can do them close to the 95% of WKO’s pVO2 max but long enough they need quite a lot mental fortitude. And since building more aerobic base legs are not such a limiter, but the breathing in 5min is pretty severe and maxed out.
In 8 min on the other hand are pretty easy. HR is rising, muscles are fatiguing etc but this is different kind of mental game - more like long longer threshold intervals. Breathing is vo2 maxish but more stable.
This is my personal experience with vo2 max. That’s why I think 5 min test is the hardest test I can do:)
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I find 4min intervals by far the hardest. Or maybe I just don’t go hard enough in 5min ones. Also 4x5min is mentally much easier than 5x4min.
I think i go on 4min even hard as 5min, only 1min longer.
of isn’t that good?
IIRC this notes was from a podcast with the aerotune guys that I took for 2 custom workouts:
- For an athlete with a high VlaMax I would recommend the following design of a VO2max session: 5x7mins of 40/20s.
→ I think all out over the whole session…I set my workout to 133%/40%. - For an athlete with a low VlaMax I would recommend the following design of a VO2max session: 1.5-2min @ VO2max power + 7-9mins @ maximum lactate steady state intensity, which is repeated 3-4 times.
→ I have 4x(2min@120%8min@102%) with 4min@40%rbi
I don’t know my phenotype…probably all rounder 
… for me main VO2max work is longer intervals.
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Interesting. So, to be sure, a higher VLaMax typically means a lower FTP/VO2max right?
Ultimately it’s about time at or near maximal oxygen uptake in these sets. IF you can get there over the longer intervals, you’ll stay there longer by working longer intervals. The problem is that some people can’t sustain VO2max for 6 minutes. I struggled with this yesterday because I was carrying too much fatigue into the workout… but I achieved the breathing sensation I was going for and held it even though HR didn’t elevate as much as it should… so I wasn’t truly using as much oxygen as I could due to a lower HR, but I was probably doing about as well as I could on that day.
Over the course of the block, your ability to hold those efforts for longer time will deteriorate, so that’s when you shorten the intervals but sustain (or add) working time.
Another benefit of these is training your breathing muscles. I felt a burn in core muscles I’ve never felt a burn in before yesterday, so whether the workout was of ideal quality or not, I know I did some good work.
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Hard for me to answer…one might typically assume so and I guess in many cases higher VLaMax comes at the cost of FTP (not VO2max) but listen to Kolie Moore here on
- Can you have a high vlamax and a high ftp?
→ they’re not mutually exclusive:
Listen here from 1:06:20
Also the transcript here should be a good read…paragraphs VLaMax and Tying VO2max and VLaMax into FTP
@SpareCycles might give you a better answer than me. On his blog was a discussion with Sebastian Weber on VLaMax here in the comments:
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I also found this article on SpareCycles (2017 Training Part 3 – VO2max – Spare Cycles).
Two studies saying that block periodization works better then 2 days a week HIIT. So first week 5 days of HIIT and the next 3 weeks just 1 HIT sessions.
And the other is that the 30/30 or 40/20 sessions are better then the longer intervals?
Someone already had some practice in this approach? I am thinking of mixing the sessions (since tiz is most important). Going by 5x3 till 8x3 and 40/20 sessions and 5x6 or 6x5min…But not sure if I do it in a 4 week block periodization approach with first week 5 sessions. Seems really hard.
Been following this thread with interest because I noticed that I very infrequently get to 90% HRmax from the standard TR vo2 sessions.
Did this today having upped my FTP from 280 to 285 yesterday using the new function.
Got 12 mins at or above 90% and it felt ok.
How should I progress from here? Longer intervals, shorter rest, or higher wattage?