ERG or no ERG with Adaptive Training?

Short answer:

  • VO2 workouts are often considered “best” when the upper limit is set by the rider directly in the moment, vs some predetermined power level as a percentage of FTP.
  • This is why Resistance or Standard mode and actual bike shifting are recommended vs ERG which sets & caps the effort.

Plenty more reading to be had on existing topics:

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Even better, turn off erg completely and use sim mode with RGT/Zwift/etc. Or do your intervals outside. Vary your cadence. Ride your bike inside as much as possible like you ride outside. I’m not saying that is a popular opinion, but has been so much better for my fitness and performance.

I think we’re focusing a bit too much on the numbers, which is my fault. I’m not obsessing about small differences. But a 30% decrease warrants at least a question.

This might be it, actually:

But my main motivation for this thread was to understand what if any impact ERG has on AT. And I’m already learning new stuff! Thanks, everybody! So I’m gonna keep the floor open for anybody who wants to add anything else.

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Most of us don’t think it is a real 30% difference. I am fairly that certain you have too many differences in variables to make a proper comparison.

If you can define the exact conditions of both tests in great detail, that will help discover if the comparison is valid or totally misleading.

  • Equipment (bike in use, trainer mode, trainer gearing)
  • Power data used (power meter, trainer, P bike)
  • Test Procedure (Ramp test, 20 min, etc.)
  • Environment (room temp, humidity, fans, etc.)

Those are the quick ones the come to mind. List all of that info for both tests, and we may have a point to start with. The info shared already points to the likelihood that we have apples & oranges in tests here.

  • And to this point, not a single person thinks ERG is the root cause / issue here. There are far more likely causes that we have already pointed to that warrant a deeper look.
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Makes a ton of sense. I’m more of a sprinter and VO2max workouts have always felt too easy in ERG.

That’s very fair! A lot has changed. P bike is not super accurate, easily could have been up to 10% off, which at 300 means 30 whole watts. And for my most recent ramp test I’m still not fully recovered from the cold, so that could be another 30w of difference easily. My fitness has been slowly declining since June because my volume dropped, I moved to another state, lots of stress associated with it, and I haven’t had a proper off-season for over two years. I think we can safely retire this portion of the thread. :slight_smile:

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So, let me try to repeat what I’ve heard so far to make sure I understand:

  1. The signal that lets the AT know whether the workout was too easy for me is the survey response. So if I answer “easy”, AT will adapt my plan accordingly. By the way, do we know if AT takes HR into account to measure effort? Or is it relying solely on my survey response?

  2. If the workout feels too easy, I can increase the intensity, and AT will take that into account and adapt my plan accordingly.

  3. Turning ERG off and riding above the prescribed power is not going to be treated by AT as the signal to adapt my plan.

More or less accurate?

  • Correct, AT looks at the power you produced, compared to the targets, and then combines your survey response to determine what if any adaptations to apply to your future workouts.
  • AFAIK, HR is ignored… see #1 above.
  • Consider that using ERG with manual adjustment to the Workout Intensity setting will allow deviation from the default power targets… is essentially identical to doing the workout in RES or STD mode and exceeding the targets to the same power level…
  • Exceeding the power targets by ANY means can work, but has limits to the impact… see #2 above.

This whole support section is worth a look and handles a number of FAQ’s to at least an introductory sense. Anything beyond that may benefit from an email directly to TR to review.

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While the output is essentially identical I’m curious if they are in reality identical as far as AT is concerned. I know the link above about changing intensity does state that it can impact adaptations but has there been any comment from TR that just riding above a lower target does the same? I get in theory we’d think it should, curious if that is actually what happens. Since you have been more active in AT discussions maybe I missed it.

If I was the OP and trying to use riding slightly above the workouts prescribed power level I think I’d bump intensity and use ERG not just try to ride slightly more in resistance. I just have a feeling that while they should have the same impact on you, they might not have the same impact on AT.

Sean has been the one answering these questions and has never dissected the over power questions between trainer modes or how it’s achieved. If there was a difference, I’d have expected him to state it. Baring that, I see no reason to question the impact difference on the trainer mode or how you exceed the targets.

Additionally, I’ve worked specifically with support on super pass and other related times I chose to exceed targets. In most cases, I was in ER mode and using WI adjustment. They never mentioned that mode and use in any way as a problem. I just don’t see trainer mode as an issue here based on those 2 different interactions with TR.

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I don’t think AT cares if you go over via erg or you go over via resistance for it’s calculations, not what I’m saying.

But AT may care if you go over via just making more power than prescribed vs going up in workout intensity and then matching that. There seems to be no documentation of just going over changing how AT considers the workout but there is documentation that increasing intensity does.

So if just going over say 5% on your own does have the same impact on AT as increasing workout intensity then it can matter what mode your in if you’re unable to maintain that 5% increase via erg but you can via resistance.

Since it sounds like for AT to consider your extra work you need to increase workout intensity, then it doesn’t matter what mode you’re in.

I get what you’re saying. But it’s super simple.

AT is not looking at the WI setting at all. It’s comparing Actual Power to Target Power (at 100% WI according to FTP at the time of the workout).

WI got mentioned initially as an answer to the perceived limit that there was no way to exceed power targets in ERG. It is the main way to alter workout power in the moment, and is the equivalent of shifting or altering cadence when in RES or STD modes.

The wording in the support article could be made more clear if it focused on power. Might be worth an email to them.

That’s not at all what the faq says. It says nothing about actual vs target just increasing intensity. If it’s meant to be the same then yes an email to support to fix it seems to be necessary.

While I don’t doubt that there is some consideration for going over or under the target power, it may not be considered in the same way as changing workout intensity.

Your stating it is the same, what is this based on?

It is based on numerous discussions with TR since March 2021, with heavy bouts back whenever I attempted a super pass and did not get results I expected.

If you want more, I’d suggest you email them at this point.

I’ve emailed them. The automated response in the meantime is a link to the same one above about increasing workout intensity.

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I personally have noticed a 10-20w drop in sustainable power at threshold with erg mode… but only if using the small chainring and large gear. If I use the big chain ring and a small gear the difference goes away. I think the difference is due to higher fly wheel speed with the latter gearing. I can’t see this causing an 100w drop though.

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I’ve noticed that too. It was causing me to not perform as well on the hills on group rides. So I’m now training exclusively in the lowest gear (small chainring, big sprocket). Side benefit—it’s much quieter too!

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The Tr training plans you’ve been on must have had you do a couple of ramp tests already. How did those ones go? What has been the result/progression?

My FTP has been slowly declining since June 2021.

Not sure if you have gotten any info from TR, but there is a question and very short answer from Amber related to this discussion. More detail would sure be helpful, but this seems pointed in the direction I mentioned.