Empirical Cycling Podcast “Why Not Rønnestad 30/15 Intervals” aka Brasted

[DaveWh]

Not trying to be smart - but it’s probably worth a listen to the podcast(s). That’s on my list for today.

[old_but_not_dead_yet]

The ones you actually do, both often enough and hard enough?

Beyond that, at least three meta-analyses have concluded that classic longer intervals are better than HIIT, SIIT, or whatever the most popular acronym is these days.

[QuittingBikes]

If I’m not 100% mentally up for the challenge of completing 9x3s, e.g. Kaiser +2, switching to 30/15s feels just as shitty right around the 5th interval of each set. Then I’m suffering just the same, for minutes on end, until completion of the set. It’s like comparing a D to an F.

Also IME, my efforts in optimizing VO2max work are better spent towards just piling on volume at Z2 (on top of two really good structured workouts per week).

[old_but_not_dead_yet]

I think the question to be asking yourself is, what limits my actual performance? Then, train accordingly (e.g., work on sprinting if you’re getting close to the podium but not winning, increase your volume and number of long rides if you get tired during long races, etc.)

[Kipstrong]

I have listened to most of them - but only once through.

Correct me if I’m wrong but -
4mins Reps - can progress by increasing length
High cadence
Start harder

Reps? Rest interval? Times per week?

[Supermurph19]

Where does specificity come into this? Or are we just talking general improvement?

[jarsson]

@Kipstrong

4mins Reps - can progress by increasing length

Not necessarily - 4 minutes is the “starter”. If you can’t pedal hard enough you can shorten the intervals. 2 minutes is the minimum to see any adaptations.

@Kipstrong

Reps? Rest interval? Times per week?

He is not putting these datails because they are highly individual and his business is to tell you these things after you hire him;) According to Kolie’s article about progressive overload, and WKO webinars you can have block of 3-4 VO2 max workouts in the week and then add VO2 max workout every 5-14 days.

[Kipstrong]

Thanks

[DaveWh]

@old_but_not_dead_yet

what limits my actual performance

I want to be able to do long rides/races faster. Very generic. VO2max is an input to that, and like many, am time constrained. So am interested to learn what kind of training is the most effective/efficient.

[DaveWh]

@Kipstrong

Reps? Rest interval? Times per week?

From what he says in the podcast, low teens minutes at max “preload” seems to be a good target. So probably need 20-25 mins of work interval to accomplish that. So 5x4 seems a decent starting point.

On rest intervals, he says to tweak them so you feel rested enough to go hard again. If doing 5x4, I’d personally start with 3 mins.

And times per week depends on if you’re in a VO2 block, or just looking to maintain.

[DaveWh]

@DaveWh

What are the factors that drive MAP (note: I guess I could say VO2max instead of MAP, but I’ll say MAP as that’s what moves the pedals).
A. Max cardiac output (SV*BPM)
B. Oxygen carrying capacity of the blood (quantity and quality of red blood cells; blood volume - and presumably this also influences max cardiac output)
C. Ability of working muscles to extract oxygen from the blood
D. Efficiency with which oxygen is utilized by working muscles to create mechanical power
Note: from what I understand, right ventricle cardiac output, and ability of lungs to oxygenate blood is not typically a limiting factor - this accurate?

Answering my own question: so it seems to all be about stroke volume, which is best trained by maximizing preload filling of the left ventricle.

Hence the recommendation for high cadence VO2 work to get the muscle pump more active at returning blood to the heart.

I have more questions about this, but will wait until I’ve listened to all the VO2 podcasts.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

@DaveWh

it seems to all be about stroke volume, which is best trained by maximizing preload…

Graphical representation definitely helped me out with this:

Looking at SV, EDV, and preload we can figure out (as Kolie has done) the “best practices” for maximising heart adaptations.

Heart rate: hard-ish starts to ramp it up quickly

Skeletal muscle activity: high cadence, more contractions

Blood volume: hydration, consistent exercise

Venous return (increase) factors: breathing, super hot temps, adrenaline, food, plane of heart

Best way to maximise preload, and thus your VO2max interval effectiveness:

Turn off the fan, slam a coffee and a handful of gels, crank your fav workout tunes, get in the drops (or better yet, TT position), high cadence hammer start then spin it out for 5 minutes until you’re gasping in big buckets of air. Oh yeah, and don’t sweat, you need that big blood volume!

What could be more fun?

[old_but_not_dead_yet]

So if I do my VO2max intervals immersed in a tank of cold water, thus forcing blood centrally and increasing LVEDP, will my VO2max go up more?

[Captain_Doughnutman]

Probably not, unless you have Hoy-sized legs to overcome the water resistance and get that high cadence. But I wouldn’t worry about it, VO2max declines in old age, you’d be fighting a losing battle either way.

[DaveWh]

@Captain_Doughnutman

Graphical representation definitely helped me out with this:

Great graphic.

A few Qs - any thoughts?

1. On high cadence: presumably, as this is the best way to train VO2max to , but not necessarily the best way to ride if looking to maximize aerobic mechanical power output - due to wasted energy needed to spin the legs?

2. If it’s all about training stroke volume and preload, would training through other modes of exercise that involve higher muscle recruitment than cycling help? E.g. running, cross country skiing, or airdyne/air assault?

3. At some point, SV will drop as heart rate increases due to less filling time. Is there a point below max HR where cardiac output is highest? Or is cardiac output always higher as HR increases?

4. If cardiac output is the limiter on VO2max and aerobic power, why do many people report “legs getting tired” as the reason they stop the ramp test? Does this imply that their legs are “undertrained” to use oxygen to produce power relative to their heart’s ability to supply oxygen?
   What about people who stop the ramp test because their heart can’t pump any more?
   Could this point to different training prescriptions for the two groups of people?

[_JG]

@DaveWh

At some point, SV will drop as heart rate increases due to less filling time. Is there a point below max HR where cardiac output is highest? Or is cardiac output always higher as HR increases?

I don’t think those are graphs from athletes subjects. Grain of salt.
I remember seeing around 120bpm in a sport/athletes population.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

1. I would say yes this is the case. There are probably more than a few methods of best training (in all sport modalities) which do not translate into best riding/racing.

2. I do believe Kolie provided a brief answer to this in one of his threads. I don’t remember the answer but happy searching.

3. Isn’t “less filling time” contributing to a greater SV? Also, I believe Kolie has also answered this, pertaining to elite athletes at least, in that their SV does not plateau.

4. In both cases, unfortunately, it may be more a mental state than a physical state causing stoppage. Again, I think Kolie answered this Q on one of recent podcasts, esp the “legs getting tired”, from my recollection, the muscles (and their cellular components) have a far greater capacity than what we can give them. Perhaps a bigger limiter to the factors of stoppage is breathing/inhalation. I know that’s why I give on on ramp tests, my breathing tops out.

But, I’m no scientist!

[DaveWh]

@Captain_Doughnutman

I do believe Kolie provided a brief answer to this in one of his threads. I don’t remember the answer but happy searching.

Thx. I haven’t gotten through all the podcasts yet. It’s on my to do list.

@Captain_Doughnutman

I know that’s why I give on on ramp tests, my breathing tops out.

I’m similar - but I think it’s my heart and not my breathing (it’s not easy to fully distinguish).

If breathing, does that point to another potential limiter for VO2max - right ventricle capacity / oxygen exchange in the lungs?

[DaveWh]

@Captain_Doughnutman

it may be more a mental state than a physical state causing stoppage.

@Captain_Doughnutman

Perhaps a bigger limiter to the factors of stoppage is breathing/inhalation

I asked this in a poll a while back. 80% of people say it’s because their legs get tired. Does this mean there’s a big dose of HTFU needed for TR users

What is the reason you stop the ramp test?

For me, it’s my heart can’t beat any faster - how about you? poll ————————————- Edit: added question: Can any information be gleaned from why people fail the ramp test to inform the sort of training they should do or avoid? Or set expectations on the response to training? E.g. can muscle endurance/utilization of oxygen be more readily trained than cardiac output/oxygen delivery? ——————————————- Edit: addition of study on max HR and reasons for stopping: These are some interesting stats In…

[bbarrera]

Here was my vote:

another reason why my last ramp test was in November. Just never made sense to try and correlate maximum steady state (FTP) with a test that forces me to run out of breath. Apples and oranges and all that.