Flatlander here. I mean, we’re talking PAN flat. As a result, all of my training over the last 7 years has been on these flat sections of road. There are a few distant “climbs” that are in the 2-4 minute range, but I generally don’t ride them.
It’s commonly accepted that you can put out higher watts when you’re riding on a gradient. A couple of questions:
Are my VO2 workouts less effective if I’m doing them on flat road than if I had a climb?
This might be optimistic, bordering on unrealistic, but…has anyone else in my situation found a hack for simulating climbs?
If I have 4x5 min on the calendar, but my climb takes 3-3.5 min, could I just do 7x3 and get the same effect? In other words, would it (7x3) be good enough?
Bit costly due to the extra wear. But you could make your rear brake pads rub on purpose. This would sort of simulate an incline due to the need to be constantly accelerating which is what a hill demands.
Yeah. Climbing requires Watts and is often done at lower cadence due to limited low gearing. On the flat, use a high gear that keeps your cadence low (60-70 and maybe 80 rpm) while pushing threshold Watts. If you don’t have high enough gearing for that, ride into stiff headwinds. In doing structured workouts outside, I did at times drag a brake to provide enough resistance during a hard interval on the flat or a decline. IDK about the advisability of using a parachute, but runners use drag chutes for training. Bad if it got tangled in the drivetrain.
Some would say your better off doing interval on flat over moderate climbs. Why? Welp you pedal a bit differently on the flats since your bike has so much momentum. It causes the power stroke to be shorter and therefore you got to push harder (although for a shorter time) to produce the same watts. Id just stick with what ya got and not worry about dragging brakes or parachutes. If you get strong on flats, you will be petty good going up moderate climbs too.
Now if your talking steep grades, where your standing and mashing, thats a completely different beast..
This was on the recent Trainerroad podcast with hannah otto. The time under tension in the rotation is shorter and ‘burstier’ on flats vs the constant pressure of a climb. There was mention of simulating this on the trainer (with flywheel) by using your hardest gear to get the flywheel moving the most.
I’m mainly curious because I’m wondering if we can optimize VO2 intervals by doing them on climbs or simulating them, knowing the power output is almost universally higher. Higher watts = better.
I also find that it’s more challenging to keep the watts on target when you’re on the flats. I have gotten very good at it, but am always looking for different ways to train.
Actually, no. If you want “Better” for VO2 intervals you should look up some of the VO2 progression threads.
Hard start, high cadence (110+), max effort approach with the power dropping through the interval and even potentially interval to interval. Goal isn’t power based, get your breathing and heart rate up and hold on as long as you can. Maximizing time in zone at or near your VO2 Max.
I also don’t feel it is universally accepted that you can put out more power on climbs. My threshold, as far as I can tell, doesn’t change at all and there are plenty of flat roads where I can put out threshold+ efforts for long periods, just get a big enough chainring.
Why not mix it up and do some of the shorter intervals on the hill? Time in zone is what is important. So if a three minute hill is what’s available then use it.
For some, everything is on a trainer because it’s what available. I’m a fan on working with what you’ve got even if it’s less than optimal. Kinda like Rocky III when he was training in Siberia.
It’s very individual. For extended efforts, I can put out significantly more watts on flatter terrain compared to steep climbing. Totally different pedaling dynamics and my cadence tends to drop when climbing.
To simulate the pedaling dynamics of climbing, a higher gear (less flywheel effect) helps on the trainer.
I’ve actually done this while descending in cold temps. I was overly ambitious and underprepared on a ride early spring, so climbed up 600m before turning back and realizing I had a sweaty descent in 5\degrees Celsius without proper clothing. I sat as upright as I could and stayed on the brakes to keep speed below 35km/hr while pedalling Z2/Z3 to stay warm.
Hey, out of interest , if you live somewhere pan flat, do you also race on similar terrain or do you travel to race? If you stay in the same location then I guess I wouldnt worry as you’ll be perfecting your power on the terrain you ride.
If you do travel for races and events then I can definitely see the quandary. I personally would go and ride those 2 to 4 min climbs at VO2 max going flat out and increasing the number of reps. The brake dragging thing is annoying but I have started using brakes tactically myself when riding outside in two ways. The first is the obvious, dragging them on downhills to keep in z2 on endurance rides. The second is to remove all momentum if I do have a lot of speed after an unavoidable steep downhill so I’m back in zone quickly if my hr has dropped. I am wondering if you could adopt similar to extend the length of your hill everso slightly. All seconds count in interval progression, right? So say you have a 4 min climb coming in to it from a flat road and normally you’ll be carrying momentum into the climb, instead stop completely before the interval starts so it essentially beccomes a bit of a hard start from cold. You’ll need to push harder against the pedals on the flat to get momentum back before climbing. It would at least add variety to the interval once you are up to like 10 x 4 min (which would actually be a tough VO2 workout anyway). It will also be good that the distant climbs have the work to get there as you’ll be warm and ready to hit the intervals straight away.
The other thing I think I would try in your situation if I didnt have time to get to the distant 4 min climbs is to find the longest straightest section of road, point bike into a headwind and again start the intervals from pretty much a standstill rather than hitting them rolling from a recovery section. Not all workouts, but it would mix it up a bit and add in extra work without momentum.
You could also try loading the bike with non-aero luggage like a barbag and panniers carrying touring kit. That would slow the rate of momentum and add extra work to reach top speed.
Seriously people, forget the brake dragging and just get really good at interval on the flat. If you can do big watts on the flat, youll be put out big watts on the hills, I promise
100% of the TR workouts I’ve done outside have been on a canal towpath. So there is some extra resistance vs the road and that helps keep speeds in check but I cant imagine anything more ideal for outside workouts.
Disagree. It’s just not the case for everyone and certainly not for me.
I can have the aerobic engine, but still need to do a bunch of climbing in training to be able to express that fitness on steep climbs. And I never get to the point where I can put out the same numbers on climbs like I can on flatter terrain.
Why do you struggle to put out watts on flat? Sounds like thats a limiter to work on. I agree, its is more challenging, but if you work on it, it does translate to climbing and becoming a more well rounded rider. The grade of a hill doesnt make the watts, its your legs
