Why don’t instead try articulating explicitly what you think is wrong about the conclusions derived from the studies referenced?
I think I have already. But if you want it put a different way…
- No athletes in the study did any over-unders as part of their training during the study period.
- The study draws no conclusions about over-unders; the term is not mentioned in their paper.
- ???
- Me left confused as to why people are saying that this shows over-unders are no better than tempo riding, despite the fact over-unders weren’t even studied as a comparison at all to the other training methods.
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The way I see it, the 6 x 4 workout used for zone 3 in the study is often referred by many coaches as a Lactate Clearance workout.
I think this is the link you are missing.
I fail to see the correlation between 6x4@85% ppo and an over under.
Overs with no under is what i see.
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Ok this is really hitting home for me. Over unders have historically been brutal for me…each 90 minute session ends with me literally on my knees on the floor attempting to recover. If this is because of an inflated FTP…how do you get a NON inflated ftp, other than guessing?
I’m attempting this year to just bump down ftp, and refuse to dig as deep in workouts as I would in a race situation…but it would be nice to actually have ftp set correctly rather than throw random numbers at the wall…
It’s just another way coaches have been working “Lactate Clearance”. Short bout above threshold, short rest. Or even shorter work above Threshold, longer test at tempo.
Damn I just looked it up. It looks like it suffers from similar issues as the ramp test…a fairly wide margin of error for people. Plus I definitely dont trust myself to pace a 20 minute test properly…I’ll say this for the ramp test…it’s reproducible for me within 2-3 watts…plus I dont mind doing it.
Kinda seems like my ramp test number less a reduction, and just dole out what a think is an appropriate amount of pain in workouts might actually be the best option haha.
Alternative you could blind pace 2 10min Intervals and take the average.
Yea could do that. Still…I think I’m coming around to the view that there just may not be a substitute for ‘knowing’ what intervals should feel like. I’ve long felt over unders were just unrealistically hard, but powered through them anyway. I think that may have been a mistake.
Yea…I think based on feel…the ramp test puts me maybe 15 points high. Not devastating…but yea threshold is HARD. Not lots of work…but hard, fighting every second of the way from 2 minutes in.
To be fair…the forst 2 minutes of the first interval is fine. It starts being utterly brutal very early on in the latter half of a threshold workout.
I dont think my ftp is massively off…maybe 5% or so. But it certainly would explain why I consistently start failing workouts late in blocks, and burnout late in the season. I probably unknowingly build up a massive amount of fatigue that never really goes away.
That’s more like what a VO2 interval would feel like, than threshold. If you derive FTP from a 20 min test; it means you can hold 105% of your FTP for that length of time.
During over unders you should feel like you are recovering during the under period. Heart rate dropping, breathing becoming comfortable again. If that’s not happening then try knocking the intensity down. When you find that balance where you are recovering during the under and it’s getting much harder again during the over; then your FTP likely falls between those two values.
FTP tests give you a starting point based on statistical averages. Unless you sit in the middle of curve; you’ll want to nudge the value up or down to find your true threshold between rapidly fatigue and can keep doing this for a significant period before fatigue gets you.
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Thanks. Yea I’m definitely going to start messing around with intensity. I dont think I’ve adjusted intensity for a ride more than once or twice in 4 years.
I suspect I am a bit naturally (or trained?) better at higher intensity efforts than threshold. I’ve had weeks where I had no issues with 3 minute 120% vo2 (almost enjoyed them), yet was shattered after the second over under interval that saturday.
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Well yea that’s the plan. Going to start adjusting workouts to fit what I think they should feel like…then use those numbers to adjust ftp if need be after ramp tests.
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Sure, but doesn’t mean they produce the same response as over unders.
In Computing there is something called binary search. But it can also be used in other scenarios.
Let’s say you are brand new to training and have no idea of the test protocols. You’ve heard about FTP and it definition. You know it must be somewhere between 0 and 300 watts based on what your cycling buddies say, but you don’t know where.
You pick a value halfway between, at 150 watts. You decide to ride at that power as long as you can. After 3 hours you decide it can’t be your FTP.
You now know your FTP is more than 150 watts, and less than 300 watts (assumed for time being). You pick a value halfway between, at 225 watts.
You decide to ride at 225 watts, and manage 1.5 hours. You decide your FTP is higher than 225 watts.
You pick a value halfway between 225 and 300 , and opt for 262 watts. You start riding and only manage 10 mins. You decide your FTP lies between 225 and 262 watts.
At this point you’ve done three sessions with only one above FTP. You’ve narrowed down your FTP to a 37 watt range from a 300 watt range in those same rides.
You now pick a value halfway between 225 and 262, at 243 watts. Again you ride, this time at 243 watts and manage 40 mins. You decide this is your threshold. Just to be sure you decide to ride at an intensity half way between 243 and 262, at 252 watts. You ride at 252 watts and manage 15 minutes.
You’ve now done 5 sessions, with 2 below FTP, 1 at FTP, and 2 above FTP. You’ve narrowed down your FTP to a range of a few watts. You’ve populated your power curve up to 3 hours.
You have a pretty good idea what intensities you can hold for specific durations. You’ve got a FTP you know you can hold for 40 mins and even 9 watts more sees that drop to 15 mins. Sounds like a functional threshold.
If anyone decides to try this protocol, you heard it here first.
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Lol. You arent too far off. I am 99% certain my FTP is somewhere between 265 and 295. I cant ride at 265 all day, but it certainly is not painful. If you give me any given interval length…I’m sure I could bang one out if I really had to. 1hr+ of course would be very very questionable haha.
295 I could manage 10 minutes…maybe 20. It would be absolutely horrible though. I think I’m right in between.
For what it’s worth I recently manually adjusted my ftp to right in the middle…280, and restarted SSB1, mid volume. Did the first sweet spot workout yesterday, a pretty low level one, and it was…challenging, but not remotely putting me in a hurt locker of any kind. Definite leg fatigue in the latter half of each interval, but nothing too worrisome, Watched an episode of Yellowstone at 6am, and finished up comfrotable, and breathing normally 90 seconds after. I think this is pretty close.
Take half of 265 + 295, which is 280 watts. See how long you can ride that. Manage 30-40 mins probably a good functional threshold power to work with. Manage an hour, then try half way between 280 and 295 at 287. Manage 20 mins then try halfway between 265 and 280, thus 272. Manage 40 mins, probably a good functional threshold to work with.
See above comment haha.
I think I’m going to start doing a lot of this on feel honestly. I need to start getting a gauge for how deep I should be digging in these workouts…I’ve been unnecessarily thrashing myself I think.
I’m shooting for sweet spot to make my legs hurt, but know I could keep going if need be with each interval, and do additional ones at the end of workouts.
Threshold…well painful but repeatable; sort of. If I have to.
Vo2 I think I pretty much have a handle on…drowning but not dead 
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And every one of those sessions had more training benefit than a ramp test. 
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