Does this prove over/unders don't work any better than riding at tempo?

TLDR warning.

This is taken from the POL for lower volume cyclists thread & I thought it would be interesting to create a stand alone thread. @GoLongThenGoHome linked a paper that included a reference to this paper comparing polarized vs non-polarized training for cyclists.

In that paper cyclists trained using an 80/0/20 (Z1/Z2/Z3 where Z1 is <1st lactate turn point and Z3 is >2nd lactate turn point) or a 55/45/0 training distribution. So the non-polarized training regimen included NO WORK at or above threshold. The polarized training Z3 work was modeled after the Stepto-Hawley ‘best case’ training from their papers…this workout has been in my custom workouts list for a few years now. It’s basically 4 minutes at ~110% FTP (85% PPO), 90 seconds rest, 8 times…but in this paper they just did 6x 4min @ 85% PPO followed by 2min rest. So not exactly the Stepto-Hawley protocol as they imply but very similar.

The interesting thing wrt to Over/Unders, Hunter took monocarboxylase transporter 1 & 4 pre/post intervention. MCT1 transport lactate from the blood across a cell membrane. MCT4 transports lactate from ‘inside the cell’ to the blood. MCT4 up-regulated dramatically in both groups but THERE WAS NO STATISTICAL DIFFERENCE between polarized and non-polarized training.

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If you look at a classic TR Over-Under workout (Emerson) you will see that the purpose of the workout is to ‘effectively train your muscles to process the lactic buildup while still going pretty hard.’ Working a little above FTP ‘flood the muscle with metabolic byproducts’ and then working a little below FTP allows those ‘metabolic byproducts’ to clear.

Sounds like a good theory but the riders in this study were able to up-regulate Lactate-to-bloodstream transport substantially without ever riding at or above threshold. Very, very interesting…and maybe a little humorous that so many riders have slogged through hated over/under workouts that could have been done just as well with a tempo workout.

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Ism is about burning fat not dealing with lactic acid

Not based on the TR text description accompanying each workout. :crazy_face:

“Emerson’s primary objective is to increase your ability to tolerate and utilize the byproducts that accompany riding above your FTP, all while maintaining a reasonably high power output.”

Which is still true! But if we were to take a survey, ‘What TR workouts are hardest?’ I bet over/under workouts would make the list. Probably at least top 5.

So for all those athletes that hate over/under workouts, I HAVE GOOD NEWS: don’t do them. You can achieve similar adaptation by doing tempo or sweet spot or even just riding a little above your ventilatory threshold.

How quickly do MCT 1 and 4 changes occur (up or down) in response to training or detraining?

It’d be interesting to know whether those adaptations would change over time. Nothing there was an increase in LTP, does that mean the same number of transporters are better at their job, or is that completely independent?

Caveat: over/unders are GREAT preparation for rides/races where you are riding with people who are faster/stronger than you.

For me that’s a reason to do them as well as steady-state intervals.

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It’s actually about fat oxidation which occurs in the same aerobic zone as lactate recycling. So as far as I can tell part of the training adaptation is pushing that fat oxidation zone to a higher wattage which has a dual effect of allowing lactate recycling at higher wattages.

For me, regardless of deep diving into the science, I agree with @Helvellyn - there is a lot to be said for actually being able to mentally cope with the feeling being over threshold. You need to know what it feels like and you need to have confidence you can survive over threshold in a race situation or when a steep climb comes up etc.

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He preaches metabolic flexibility, but in my experience doing middle zone moves the needle of improving lactate metabolism much better than z2.

This is from lactate measurements. Z2 work does not lower my lactate at a specific percentage of threshold power, but moves the whole curve to the right.

Very commendable, then. You are wise beyond your years!

But shame on you for knowing and never saying so during the many over/under conversations we’ve had on this forum. :rofl: So many have suffered needlessly because you held your tongue.

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But shouldn’t the question be: Do this improve your performance? So you have proven data that you can upregulate MCT 1 & 4. But does it actually do anything to improve performance? Do you take your lab results to the race director and say, look, I have more MCT transporters so I win. It’s a cool research paper and looks good on paper, but paper doesn’t win bike races. I’m being slightly facetious here, but it would seem that the end goal of winning a race or setting new KOMs or whatever should be the factor when determining what is best.

Hypothetical, but let’s say you just do Z2 and/or tempo and you upregulate MCT. Other person does over/unders and doesn’t have the same MCT boost, but they increase their FTP, or increase their repeatability, or increase their 5 and 10 minute power. What training is deemed better then?

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Well I think you’re just making another argument that over/unders are a waste of time. :smiley:

Mostly I just think it’s funny that so many people hate doing over/unders and the whole time they were slogging them out the intended adaptation they were getting was not much better than riding tempo. C’mon…that’s a little bit funny, right?

As to what is really going on…I’ve always believed that up or down regulation of transporters in any membrane of any critter depends on the relative difference in concentration of the substance being transported on either side of the membrane. If the difference is large there will be material UP regulation.

So if you want MCT4 to up-regulate you need a high concentration of lactate in the sarcoplasm. If you want to up-regulate MCT1 you need a high concentration of lactate in the blood relative to the sarcoplasm. That’s why no up-regulation of MCT1 was observed in this experiement…sarcoplasm already had a high lactate concentration so transport of lactate from the blood to the muscle cell was unlikely to occur (what about up/down regulation of tissues in the body outside the muscle? That’s an interesting though).

So for my money the best way to up-regulate the lactate shuttle is the way that generates the most lactate. I know from futzing around with my own lactate response that the best way is hard start intervals sustained at or around threshold. Next best option would be floats. But this data causes me to question even that.

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If they get better results I’m failing to see how they’re a waste of time. I’m saying you’re focusing on the MCT transporters as an indicator of results. And I’m saying that who cares what happens to MCTs? Results are the results.

Maybe they don’t upregulate MCTs. Who cares. Again, I think performance should be the test. If you think that tempo is going to give you better performance, cool. But if over/unders are getting you FTP gains, or better mental fortitude, or the ability to keep a break away off the front, I’ll take that. At the end of the day, I couldn’t care less what is happening to whatever transporters or proteins if it isn’t making me faster. If it’s proven that an increase in MCTs correlates to better performance then I’m in. If it’s just showing a higher number for one training modality, does it really even matter?

I think they touched upon it in the podcast a few times, but basically they’ve said that it’s fine and dandy to pick out mechanisms and proteins and study them individually. But one, the human body isn’t that simple. Things don’t happen in a vacuum, meaning that looking at a single transporter isn’t the whole picture. But their big take away for me was that performance should be the ultimate determination. Is it making you faster? That’s it.

Not me. I just copied and pasted text from over/under workouts.

The main point is this: the stated primary goal of TR over/under workouts is to “increase your ability to tolerate and utilize the byproducts that accompany riding above your FTP” I didn’t say that. TR said that.

I just think it’s funny that so many people hate doing over/under workouts but they slog through them…but this data indicate tempo work is pretty much as effective at achieving the intended adaptation.

If you want to know what I specifically think about how to adapt and improve your lactate shuttle…first of all, I’m flattered by your interest! & second of all, please review my previous post.

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That’s not performance, surely you are referring to actual results rather than just another number?

Yea, I’ll give you that. The workout text for over/unders says lactate shuttling is the goal. But it also says “tolerate…riding above FTP,” which can’t be overlooked and doesn’t happen at tempo. And again, who knows if those 2 MCTs are the only factor in lactate shuttling. We can’t look at single mechanisms in a vacuum.

The intended adaptation is better utilization of lactate. The data shows that tempo may be as good at upregulating MCTs. Those may not be the same thing. They could be, but looking at a single mechanism or a single pathway may be missing the whole picture. That’s all I’m saying. Performance is what matters.

That’s why I said race wins or KOMs or whatever your goal is. If your goal is to have a lot of MCTs, cool. I’d rather win.

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Of course I did them! But I’m all about efficiency so I did them with both legs simultaneously in order to save time! :innocent:

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Sure would, those Over/Overs 95% of TR users do are a killer :wink:

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I guess a lot of people hate them, it’s not something I’ve paid a lot of attention to.

I always thought over/unders were just another way of achieving/maximising time at/near threshold. i.e. my perception from questions on the AACC etc is that many TR athletes can’t do say 5x12min at FTP, but can do 5x12min over/unders. Whether that’s due to less lactate, mentally easier, or what I’m not 100%, but I don’t think it’s drastically different until you move to the very high overs type over/unders.

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Or their FTP is inflated :wink:

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the work is basically the same but mentally seeing the timer tick away to 0 every 1-2 minutes is a lot easier than seeing 12 minutes remaining

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