This is taken from the POL for lower volume cyclists thread & I thought it would be interesting to create a stand alone thread. @GoLongThenGoHome linked a paper that included a reference to this paper comparing polarized vs non-polarized training for cyclists.
In that paper cyclists trained using an 80/0/20 (Z1/Z2/Z3 where Z1 is <1st lactate turn point and Z3 is >2nd lactate turn point) or a 55/45/0 training distribution. So the non-polarized training regimen included NO WORK at or above threshold. The polarized training Z3 work was modeled after the Stepto-Hawley âbest caseâ training from their papersâŚthis workout has been in my custom workouts list for a few years now. Itâs basically 4 minutes at ~110% FTP (85% PPO), 90 seconds rest, 8 timesâŚbut in this paper they just did 6x 4min @ 85% PPO followed by 2min rest. So not exactly the Stepto-Hawley protocol as they imply but very similar.
The interesting thing wrt to Over/Unders, Hunter took monocarboxylase transporter 1 & 4 pre/post intervention. MCT1 transport lactate from the blood across a cell membrane. MCT4 transports lactate from âinside the cellâ to the blood. MCT4 up-regulated dramatically in both groups but THERE WAS NO STATISTICAL DIFFERENCE between polarized and non-polarized training.
If you look at a classic TR Over-Under workout (Emerson) you will see that the purpose of the workout is to âeffectively train your muscles to process the lactic buildup while still going pretty hard.â Working a little above FTP âflood the muscle with metabolic byproductsâ and then working a little below FTP allows those âmetabolic byproductsâ to clear.
Sounds like a good theory but the riders in this study were able to up-regulate Lactate-to-bloodstream transport substantially without ever riding at or above threshold. Very, very interestingâŚand maybe a little humorous that so many riders have slogged through hated over/under workouts that could have been done just as well with a tempo workout.
Not based on the TR text description accompanying each workout.
âEmersonâs primary objective is to increase your ability to tolerate and utilize the byproducts that accompany riding above your FTP, all while maintaining a reasonably high power output.â
Which is still true! But if we were to take a survey, âWhat TR workouts are hardest?â I bet over/under workouts would make the list. Probably at least top 5.
So for all those athletes that hate over/under workouts, I HAVE GOOD NEWS: donât do them. You can achieve similar adaptation by doing tempo or sweet spot or even just riding a little above your ventilatory threshold.
How quickly do MCT 1 and 4 changes occur (up or down) in response to training or detraining?
Itâd be interesting to know whether those adaptations would change over time. Nothing there was an increase in LTP, does that mean the same number of transporters are better at their job, or is that completely independent?
Itâs actually about fat oxidation which occurs in the same aerobic zone as lactate recycling. So as far as I can tell part of the training adaptation is pushing that fat oxidation zone to a higher wattage which has a dual effect of allowing lactate recycling at higher wattages.
For me, regardless of deep diving into the science, I agree with @Helvellyn - there is a lot to be said for actually being able to mentally cope with the feeling being over threshold. You need to know what it feels like and you need to have confidence you can survive over threshold in a race situation or when a steep climb comes up etc.
He preaches metabolic flexibility, but in my experience doing middle zone moves the needle of improving lactate metabolism much better than z2.
This is from lactate measurements. Z2 work does not lower my lactate at a specific percentage of threshold power, but moves the whole curve to the right.
Very commendable, then. You are wise beyond your years!
But shame on you for knowing and never saying so during the many over/under conversations weâve had on this forum. So many have suffered needlessly because you held your tongue.
But shouldnât the question be: Do this improve your performance? So you have proven data that you can upregulate MCT 1 & 4. But does it actually do anything to improve performance? Do you take your lab results to the race director and say, look, I have more MCT transporters so I win. Itâs a cool research paper and looks good on paper, but paper doesnât win bike races. Iâm being slightly facetious here, but it would seem that the end goal of winning a race or setting new KOMs or whatever should be the factor when determining what is best.
Hypothetical, but letâs say you just do Z2 and/or tempo and you upregulate MCT. Other person does over/unders and doesnât have the same MCT boost, but they increase their FTP, or increase their repeatability, or increase their 5 and 10 minute power. What training is deemed better then?
Well I think youâre just making another argument that over/unders are a waste of time.
Mostly I just think itâs funny that so many people hate doing over/unders and the whole time they were slogging them out the intended adaptation they were getting was not much better than riding tempo. CâmonâŚthatâs a little bit funny, right?
As to what is really going onâŚIâve always believed that up or down regulation of transporters in any membrane of any critter depends on the relative difference in concentration of the substance being transported on either side of the membrane. If the difference is large there will be material UP regulation.
So if you want MCT4 to up-regulate you need a high concentration of lactate in the sarcoplasm. If you want to up-regulate MCT1 you need a high concentration of lactate in the blood relative to the sarcoplasm. Thatâs why no up-regulation of MCT1 was observed in this experiementâŚsarcoplasm already had a high lactate concentration so transport of lactate from the blood to the muscle cell was unlikely to occur (what about up/down regulation of tissues in the body outside the muscle? Thatâs an interesting though).
So for my money the best way to up-regulate the lactate shuttle is the way that generates the most lactate. I know from futzing around with my own lactate response that the best way is hard start intervals sustained at or around threshold. Next best option would be floats. But this data causes me to question even that.
If they get better results Iâm failing to see how theyâre a waste of time. Iâm saying youâre focusing on the MCT transporters as an indicator of results. And Iâm saying that who cares what happens to MCTs? Results are the results.
Maybe they donât upregulate MCTs. Who cares. Again, I think performance should be the test. If you think that tempo is going to give you better performance, cool. But if over/unders are getting you FTP gains, or better mental fortitude, or the ability to keep a break away off the front, Iâll take that. At the end of the day, I couldnât care less what is happening to whatever transporters or proteins if it isnât making me faster. If itâs proven that an increase in MCTs correlates to better performance then Iâm in. If itâs just showing a higher number for one training modality, does it really even matter?
I think they touched upon it in the podcast a few times, but basically theyâve said that itâs fine and dandy to pick out mechanisms and proteins and study them individually. But one, the human body isnât that simple. Things donât happen in a vacuum, meaning that looking at a single transporter isnât the whole picture. But their big take away for me was that performance should be the ultimate determination. Is it making you faster? Thatâs it.
Not me. I just copied and pasted text from over/under workouts.
The main point is this: the stated primary goal of TR over/under workouts is to âincrease your ability to tolerate and utilize the byproducts that accompany riding above your FTPâ I didnât say that. TR said that.
I just think itâs funny that so many people hate doing over/under workouts but they slog through themâŚbut this data indicate tempo work is pretty much as effective at achieving the intended adaptation.
If you want to know what I specifically think about how to adapt and improve your lactate shuttleâŚfirst of all, Iâm flattered by your interest! & second of all, please review my previous post.
Yea, Iâll give you that. The workout text for over/unders says lactate shuttling is the goal. But it also says âtolerateâŚriding above FTP,â which canât be overlooked and doesnât happen at tempo. And again, who knows if those 2 MCTs are the only factor in lactate shuttling. We canât look at single mechanisms in a vacuum.
The intended adaptation is better utilization of lactate. The data shows that tempo may be as good at upregulating MCTs. Those may not be the same thing. They could be, but looking at a single mechanism or a single pathway may be missing the whole picture. Thatâs all Iâm saying. Performance is what matters.
Thatâs why I said race wins or KOMs or whatever your goal is. If your goal is to have a lot of MCTs, cool. Iâd rather win.
I guess a lot of people hate them, itâs not something Iâve paid a lot of attention to.
I always thought over/unders were just another way of achieving/maximising time at/near threshold. i.e. my perception from questions on the AACC etc is that many TR athletes canât do say 5x12min at FTP, but can do 5x12min over/unders. Whether thatâs due to less lactate, mentally easier, or what Iâm not 100%, but I donât think itâs drastically different until you move to the very high overs type over/unders.
So many have suffered needlessly because you held your tongue.
