Observation: ERG mode allows me to comply with a prescribed workout that I might otherwise fail by increasing my cadence, biasing the training load onto my cardiovascular system. This increase in cadence is often, though not always, subconscious.
Question: Does this negatively impact muscular adaptations and hinder long-term progress?
Haven’t found this discussed or covered anywhere
My hypothesis: ERG mode can result in a “training imbalance” between muscular and cardiovascular adaptations, limiting muscular adaptation and long-term progress.
Prediction: To maintain balance and get the intended effect, a relatively strict cadence needs to be adhered to to keep the load focused, not just during a single workout, but also from workout to workout.
Example: Performing an interval at 80 rpm will require significant more force from the legs than performing the interval at 100 rpm. Performing at 80 rpm will work the muscles much more, whereas 100 rpm will tax the cardiovascular system much more.
Has this ever been talked about on the podcast or anyone else ever thought about this?
Has anyone ever tried training using the actual torque applied, instead of referencing the power numbers? I’d think it would be even better to target a specific torque from the legs than to target a power number.
Well, you can do exactly the same cadence change in Resistance or Standard mode by shifting and adjusting cadence. Therefore, your question is about a rider choice since cadence control rests in the legs of the rider, not the trainer mode specifically.
Your question would be better if recentered on cadence (with no mention of trainer mode) since you can train at any desired cadence in any mode. In fact, some people insist that cadence control is easier/better in non-ERG modes since they claim better input/output due to how the power is increased/decreased and the parallel to riding outside. And some like me, have used ERG for a decade or more with great success and applied a wide range of cadence with that tool, so I think trainer mode is a red herring or straw man that doesn’t get to the core issue.
If your real question is about training in a particular cadence range that does/doesn’t align well with a riders actual event needs, then that is appropriate and and covered in various other threads over many years here. There is no perfect cadence overall and it is highly individual relying on many factors.
But I am confident that training in a cadence (and related torque/force) range that notably differs from your actual needs is less than optimal.
IDK. Many other training apps specify cadences during workouts and will show whether you’re on, above, or below target cadence for the interval. They will also have you change between sitting and standing. Some TR workouts have on-screen instructions that suggest cadence ranges and sitting/standing during the workout, but these seem to be far a few between compared to other apps.
No. You are still doing the work. Using ERG does not change that. It is a “magic bullet” that makes the workouts physically easier.
Some people prefer resistance mode, some prefer ERG, some (like me) will do a mix of both…I’ll use Resistance mode for VO2 and above and ERG for everything else.
You make a good point about cadence, though it differs a little from what I’m curious about. I’m not specifically curious about the effects of training in a particular cadence range - as you mentioned, that’s fairly well covered. I’m curious about the impact of subconscious “cadence creep” when using ERG mode. My thought is, in the case of resistance or standard mode, the rider would need to make a conscious decision to shift gears, whereas in ERG mode, what I call “cadence creep”, is more of a result of the body making an unconscious decision to increase cadence in response to fatigue of the leg muscles. This may not happen to everyone, but it definitely happens to me - but who knows, maybe I’m an outlier. TrainerRoad would actually have a mountain of data to be able to look at and see if workouts done in ERG mode tend to have this “cadence creep” versus workouts done in resistance mode. In resistance mode, the body can’t subconsciously increase cadence to lower the force required of the leg muscles, the power output just goes up and the force required from the legs remains. In the end, maybe it is as simple as, “if you allow your cadence to creep up while using ERG mode, you will shift the workout focus from your leg muscles to your cardiovascular system, so if you want to maximize the muscular training benefit while using ERG mode, particularly for threshold (and maybe even sweet spot) and above, focus on holding a particular cadence”.
I was just super curious about this because I had never heard of it discussed before but it’s something I definitely noticed in my training.
In any case, thanks for the reply and getting me thinking more about it!
Creep can happen but it swings both ways and I more often see people mention (and complain about) cadence dropping rather than increasing when using ERG. Usually it’s fatigue related WRT higher power workouts you mention and it’s the tandem complaint that “ERG is too hard” since it will keep adding resistance when a rider slows cadence (fatigue and/or lack of attention).
The use case of cadence creep can still happen in Res/Std modes, but it will be the opposite direction from ERG as you describe. It’s possible for people to slack on cadence and power to their detriment just as badly as ERG if they are slacking in effort and/or attention.
Bottom line for me is that all these modes are tools where an inattentive rider can do less than ideal training if they aren’t paying attention and controlling the process. I think ERG can lead to issues, particularly for those that don’t check in through the course of a workout. ERG is great but not a mythical cure-all that some think. It can be used well or poorly, but so can the other modes.
The rider has to do work in all cases so I think faulting the system here is the wrong direction to look. The old phrase “A bad workman blames his tools” applies in essence here. The trainer responds to the rider and they are the ones truly in control. Deviation from any specific goal is in their hands/legs. Own that and do the work as desired/intended. Train how you want to race/ride as they say, which requires attention & effort no matter what.
I’m one of those people that finds my cadence drifting downwards in ERG mode when I’m fatigued. It happens more on the trainer than it does outdoors, but I have the same tendency outdoors.
The trainer physical design plays a role too. With my KICKR Core there is a death spiral of crazy high torque when cadence gets below about 80-85 rpm, depending on the power target. But I bet that threshold would differ on a different trainer design, one with faster response rates. On the flip side, if I purposely spike my cadence I can get the trainer to overestimate power to cheat the workout.
But that’s splitting hairs. Just figure out what mode works best for you, on your trainer, to achieve your training goals. And for many the choice of trainer mode is different depending on if it’s above or below threshold work (many use sim or slope mode for >FTP).
We all love our marginal gains, but the actual choice of workout is going to have like ten times the effect on seeing improvements to cardiovascular development (VO2max workouts) vs muscular endurance (long tempo or sweet spot workouts). Don’t get hung up on trainer mode, just use what works for you.
You’re absolutely right, either trainer mode requires attention - essentially both resistance mode and erg mode both require you to hold your cadence steady:
Resistance mode requires you to pay attention to your cadence to hold the power steady, since your power will go up or down linearly with cadence. Failure to pay attention will have you overtraining if you let the cadence drift up, under training if you let it drift down. I’d say a downward drift in cadence is more likely with resistance mode, since that’s easier on the muscles.
In ERG mode, in some ways it’s not possible to “under train”, even if you don’t pay attention to the cadence, since it’s going to force the power regardless of whether you’re paying attention. I suppose the difference is that, if you don’t pay attention, you could wind up biasing your training towards cardiovascular or muscular - muscular if you let the cadence drop, or cardio if the cadence rises.
I think the main benefits for ERG mode is you really can’t accidentally “under train” since no matter what you’re hitting the power numbers, and what I think is the biggest advantage, you can decide for yourself what cadence you want to train at and keep it consistent across all your workouts, whereas with resistance mode you have to rely on your gearing, although now that I write this I realize I was thinking more in terms of slope mode than - resistance mode you can actually increase the resistance manually at whatever rpm you’re at - though at that point youre doing manually what ERG mode does for you.
To me, “cadence creep” really isn’t an issue. When out riding in the real world, slight changes in terrain can cause your cadence to drift ~5 or so RPM pretty regularly.
I don’t see any downsides to resorting to the cadence that feels most efficient to you. There’s really nothing to gain by forcing yourself to stick to a cadence that will make things feel more difficult.
If your bike doesn’t have sufficient gearing that allows you to stay close to your optimal cadence, then I’d suggest changing things up to ensure that, at least in the vast majority of cases, you do.
There are, of course, some scenarios where cyclists are encouraged to train at unusual cadences, such as doing torque efforts, but those are pretty rarely prescribed and have an entirely different focus than most other workouts.
If you feel that picking up your cadence will help get you through an interval, then by all means, do it! If you felt the same way out on the road, you’d probably shift into the next easier gear anyway..
Some might argue that it’s important to train to perform well at cadences that aren’t perfectly “ideal,” but I’d rather train myself to perform well at my peak and assume that the strength I’m gaining will apply across the board rather than training at a sub-optimal cadence hoping that it will help me in those more rare situations.
Just kidding great idea. I don’t know if I have ever experienced cadence creep on erg outside of really low wattages. I think actually the opposite of what you are suggesting happens in the medium zones when you overshoot the power by say 10w for a few seconds all that gets siphoned off as cadence which causes you to do less power and to not ride at the cadence that was self selectedly good enough to overshoot ie clearly working.
Heaviest zones I find it makes cadence always lower because it takes too much power to raise cadence when you are already doing something close to capacitive like 6w/kg for 2min etc this is pretty realistic to racing on steep ramps
