Coach Chad's Take on Aging

I also wanted to share some recent race exploits that relate to aging in this sport. At 43, I don’t recover or respond to training (or life stress) as well as I did when I was my fastest at 35. I don’t enjoy riding the same volume I did back then though either! That said, I was recently inspired by one of my competitors on my last endurance mountain bike race I entered. The race quickly came down to about 4 of us off the front and after a longer climb help thinned the selection I was happy to settle in 4th position with my closest competitor just in front of me. I was able to get him on a technical uphill and barely held him off my pace for the final long climb in the race. I finished just a few minutes ahead of him.

The final over-all age of the podium?

  1. 43
  2. 53
  3. 43
  4. 63!

Now, this wasn’t some elite race, but it was filled with fast locals and I barely squeezed past the gentleman who took 4th over all and easily won his age division. 63, still crushing it. I have no doubt that he’s able to ride 2X - 3X more than me but still. He could easily beat me if I wasn’t trying my absolute best. Gave me faith that this really is a life-time sport - I suspect we just need to change the goals we set and focus more on over-all health.

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No doubt about being slower because of age, but I’m not sure you get what it’s like. I’m not racing or trying to be at all competitive. My aerobics are great for my age–top 15 percent. My attitude about speed is non-existant as in I don’t care at all. My problem is being able to make any progress at all without injury or such great fatigue that I overreach. My motivation has never been winning anything. There is no “transition” for me because I never was motivated by winning, so not winning or being fast is not an issue.

The point of my post is that TR has the data from all ranges of cyclists and at some point they may be able to use it for creating new types of programs using levels of effort and workout types that seem to work for those over 65 or untrained older people or even programs for recovering from injurtyy that could be tweaked by your physio. I wish I could dig into their dataset–I used to do data analysis for a living.

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This is it exactly. I probably need to find a coach that is also a physio guy who can guide me to a better program.

This is very interesting. That is very simple, don’t know why I didn’t think of anything like that. Thank you!

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If your having injury issues, no online coach much less an app based training program is going to help you. At a minimum you need a professional bike fit and maybe a physical therapist. You need to realize and embrace the fact that as great as TR is, it is impersonal and its aimed specifically at on the bike cycling training. On the bike stuff is not even the sum total of a well rounded cycling training program and it is far far removed from a general fitness program much less a therapeutic program.

As for motivation, it does not have to be winning or going fast. Everyone needs to find their motivation and what motivates you will likely change from time to time. One of the many positives of a more well rounded diverse fitness approach is you’re exposed to more opportunities to find motivation.

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The over riding question that I always deal with is “will I respond to what I’m doing for training. Have I reached my limits?” For example, I listened to a recent podcast that featured Joe Friel interviewed by his son. He recommended 2 intense workouts/week with a more intense workout every 3 days and everything else endurance pace. His VO2 workout consists 5 x 3 min at 120% of FTP with 90 sec rest. I know that its a weakness of mine, so I built a progression starting with 30 sec on/90 sec off. Currently I’m stuck at 2 min on. Is this my limit? Cn I benefit from keep hitting my head against the wall? My only goal is to keep up on the local group ride this summer.

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If you are one of those who really gets off on self coaching, the getting old thing can actually be kind of fun. The need to experiment and find your own path can be mentally stimulating, and motivating. And, frankly its way more stratifying to get yourself better (how ever you define that) than to just follow an app. You just need to have the confidence to keep at it.

Now is the time to really put all those decades of learning to use and to also learn new tricks!

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You are right about no online coach being able to help with injury.

But could there be exciting possibilities with recovery from injury? How many thousands of people could be tracked on TR if there were a means to ID injury so that the workouts used to recover could be tracked and analyzed and progress tracked. This would create a huge dataset to apply to specific injury types, like thresholds for direct knee problems like recovery from a torn meniscus (had that once) or osteoarthritis (which I have now) or even sarcopenia.

TR could be on the threshold of revolutionizing training through science, with a range of data and experience that may be unparalleled, By the time you are my age I predict that TR will have found many different approaches to problems like mine because the AI will accelerate learning and only be limited by the human dataset and the conceptual framework of the program.

In the meantime, thanks for your responses :slight_smile:

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A good coach in my opinion is someone with 10+ years of experience working with hundreds of athletes and has a wealth of longitudinal data to help minimize the trial and error of working with any athlete. You’ve got a decade on me, and after 2 years of coaching I’ll simply say that at this point you might be better off simply lifting weights and doing endurance rides. Or not. What I can say is that the current state of AI isn’t going to reach into some ‘massive data set’ and find a programming solution for your needs.

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You are right about the current state oif AI–I think that will be changing, but it’s not there yet. The reason I think it will be is that TR is on the way to becoming a massive observational fitness dataset with really hard to get data like heart rate and HRV and cadence during training and so many other bits along with rider characteristics in detail over time like weight FTP etc. These constitute a giant observational experiment. As such, each training program becomes an experiment and new outcomes that may be discovered.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

a dataset with some bias due to some level of reliance on users that stuck with the plans, and the plans themselves. Sure its possible some hidden gems will come out, like TR reducing the intensity in SSB high volume, but the AI engine also has some coaching logic which goes back to what TR sees as its target audience.

This is where I think mountain biking is king. It is a total body workout if your riding anything other than fire roads. The terrain is ever changing and your are engaged the entire time both mentally and physically. The single plane motion of just sitting there has been a struggle for me as of late. When I first started, adding miles was the goal and the fun challenge but once I got to a certain point I lost interest.

I think a lot of people, including myself take this cycling stuff to serious. They love the numbers, and as an engineer, I certainly do. I have been down the training rabbit hole and continue to do so and I don’t even race, I just enjoy the challenge and wait to be able to run around with my 2 boys for as long as I can, they are my motivation. I actually sold my powermeter on my gravel bike as it just took the fun away from it for me and now it just sits on the training because I would rather be on my mountain bike 9.5/10 times.

I would say, just chill out, have some fun, keep rides easy, hit the gym lift some weights and just have fun with it. Drop the hammer when you feel good. It does not have to be so serious.

With that being said, if anyone is interested in an Ibis Hakka MX size 53, fireball red let me know :rofl:

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64 here. In 2019 I had impressive age-group #s along most of the most the power curve. It allowed me to [have fun] hanging with those 1/2 my age on competitive group rides and even do well in a couple of Cat 5 hilly road races (45+ and 55+). However, substantially cartilage loss put a huge damper on those activities. Post recovery, I have been able to operate at about 2/3 throttle at least until some gel injections I am seeing an ortho for.

What may be most relevant to your situation from the process I have gone/am going through is the opportunity to reassess “why I ride a bike”. I have no idea where this journey will lead for me, but know it will be the intersection of what I enjoy vs what I can do and perhaps, you are going through the same process. Also, I may have missed it in other posts, but in addition to muscle gain, weight training is hugely important to maintenance of bone density. So regardless of your cycling ambitions, you should consider it if nothing more than that purpose alone.

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I’m 69 and bought my first road bike only 10 years ago. I’ve made some power/FTP gains but am transitioning now from the SS/Threshold focus to a polarized approach with 80% endurance and 20% Vo2Max, based on the advice of Joe Friel and Stephen Seiler. My weekly goal is 100 miles. I think your original question is as much philosophical as it is technical. What are your goals for your cycling and other exercise? What is your weekly mileage? I’m taking a more holistic approach than in the past, knowing that the marginal gains from doing more than 100 miles or 8-ish hours weekly are not really worth the additional fatigue and potential overuse injuries that could occur. For cardiovascular and cognitive health, I likely get very little additional benefit by doing 100, rather than 80, miles a week. My goals include longevity, being active until I keel over, camaraderie, the sheer joy of cycling, and still being able to have a goal to improve at a sport, while most of our peers are sitting on their duffs.

As we age, weight training is vital for overall health and stability as much (or more) than it is for cycling prowess. Frankly, it’s not nearly as much fun as riding my bike, but the long term return on investment is much better than spending those two hours in the gym v. on the bike.

I share your desire that TR should scrape all of its data for master cyclists and provide us some guidance, but doubt it will happen. The only nugget I’ve heard is Nate’s statement on the podcast that, based on TR’s data, an older cyclist should never go above FTP during an event if he wants to get the best overall time because this age group simply can’t recover from those hard intervals like younger cyclists can. (Still not sure how I’m supposed to climb hills at FTP or less :rofl:)

As Phil Cavell says in his excellent book “Midlife Cyclist,” we are part of the first generation who has actively continued an aerobic sport in our 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, and beyond. Someone really should be doing a longitudinal study of our group.

The number of over 60 cyclists is certainly growing and quite a few of them are on TR. I started a thread for over 60 TR subscribers two years ago that stays fairly active. Who's over 60 y/o and using TR?

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Thank you for bringing this up, @estarkie! Surely the Trainer Road data could provide meaningful information for older athletes. I think you
spoke for many who wonder how to approach the next few seasons. Maybe your data experience can influence the study that helps all of us be faster, longer. We’ll done.

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I agree with 100% of your post. Overall, I think TR has little understanding (probably due to lack of focus) of us over 60 folks. The most blatant examples to me have been their lack of understanding of the importance of warmup (i.e. start lower and go longer than TR prescription), rest Intervals between high intensity efforts and recovery between hard days (i.e. translating to ramp rate). Before my 2019 injuries (knee cartilage loss), I was actually training at a higher level (more TSS in each zone) than TR’s SSMV, but the items I mention above were significantly different from TR’s prescription (I used WC to modify or create my own workouts) and my results were (I believe) better than what I could have achieved following TRs prescription.

Note: Perhaps similar to you I think Joe Friel’s guidance on this topic (e.g. Fast over 50) is excellent.

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If you have sarcopenia and are 70 then weight lifting will be the only way to gain strength or muscle. So if you haven’t started that then you should. But if you are unexperienced and have preexisting injuries then I would definitely start with a PT or personal trainer so that you don’t aggravate it or cause new ones.

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Definitely start weight training if you have sarcopenia. Your quality of life will be so much better. All it takes is a total body workout 2 times per week…say Wednesday and Sunday or something with at least 2 days between your lifting sessions. AND…a little weight training goes a long ways. If you know what you’re doing it shouldn’t take over 20 to 30 minutes for a good workout. After the workout, make sure you get some protein and take a nap. See the latest TrainerRoad Ask a Cycling Coach podcast on the importance of protein for older athletes.

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I’m so sad to read that this was your takeaway from the podcast this week! With the obvious caveat that I am not in my 70s, perhaps I can offer some thoughts based on what Chad said on the pod, some of the research and principles covered, and our approach here at TR.

From Coach Chad’s presentation it seems clear that there is no way for me to gain back lost strength or promote significant muscle growth, so I will always be as prone to injury as now and I won’t get faster either. Apparently, my only hope for maintaining any capacity is to take up weight lifting.

First, about what Chad shared. He started the section on aging with research specific to effects of aging on protein balance and muscle synthesis, which was admittedly disheartening, but importantly, covering research limited to aging, but that did not necessarily considering effects of training. This was a let’s-get-the-bad-news-out-of-the-way-first approach, but the good news aspect was that endurance training addresses the majority of age-associated decline in muscle function (e.g. mitochondrial function) and mass (e.g. anabolic resistance). In fact, low intensity activities like walking have been shown to be sufficient in addressing specific age-related declines. Endurance training does even more (improved mito function, decreased inflammation, increased capillarization/vasodilation and circulation, etc). Even better, adding simple nutritional interventions and resistance exercise compounds these positive effects. Ultimately, it was a very positive outlook on the powerful effects of training interventions. Chad is realist and will never sugar coat things. He aims to present a balanced, realistic viewpoint, but it can be hard to hear the positives after the negatives. The research suggests that combining endurance exercise, resistance training, and nutritional interventions is highly effective. Chad made the point that if forced to pick between endurance and resistance, resistance might be the more effective of the two, if considering each in isolation. But you don’t have to pick just one!

I really don’t like to believe that plasticity and strength are completely irretrievable as Coach Chad indicates.

Second, and more to your point, even the best research available isn’t fate. If you train, you absolutely can improve fitness and strength. We talked about this in light of other topics this week, but mechanistic studies by definition cannot take into account enough context to determine outcomes for any specific individual. Your own progress is all the proof you need. Moreover, there are many ways to improve that have little to do with muscle mass specifically: form, efficiency, handling, pacing, aerodynamics, mental toughness, resilience, etc. I think Chad actually made a compelling argument for plasticity, especially adaptations to endurance and resistance exercise and nutrition. (Again, I can understand how that might get lost in the broader context.)

As regards TR and using our data set to create plans for coming back from injury, there is too much variability in any given injury (e.g. one meniscus tear is not the same as another), let alone in the healing process from one individual to the next. We can’t assess things like your bike fit, your adherence to physical therapy, etc.

As regards TR using our data to address the needs of masters athletes, this is a big part of why we built AT. I personally dug into the research on endurance performance in older athletes. Consider, for example, how we would recommend a masters plan. How would we define an applicable age range? Women can experience menopause anywhere from their 30s to their 70s. An elite athlete at 70 could handle a higher training load than a sedentary beginner at 40. It wouldn’t make sense to say these plans apply to athletes 50+ or 60+, because age is only one factor. Then you can get into the weeds on the difference between chronological age and biological age. For all of these reasons, we come back to the individual: what works for you? Our goal with AT is to tailor a plan to you. This way we can serve a 65-year-old competitive athlete as well as a 50-year-old beginner athlete and challenge them each appropriately.

You make a great point regarding acute- versus long-term studies. This is a huge challenge in research. Your frustration resonates with me. Most studies are done on men and extrapolated to women based on body mass/weight. This is changing, thankfully, but women used to be purposely excluded as subjects due to the complicating factor of menstrual cycles. Science is fascinating and can be useful, but it rarely translates directly without deep consideration for individual context. We try very hard to convey this on the podcast, but it isn’t easy.

It sounds like injury has been a major hindrance for you. I echo much of the wonderful advice in this thread regarding physical therapy. I experience ongoing/intermittent knee pain due to damaged patellar cartilage. My orthopedic surgeon said the best thing to do for knee injuries is to strengthen the muscles around the knee. (He recommended cycling LOL.) Both cycling and resistance training can do that (regardless of age). Resistance training doesn’t have to mean weight lifting. Start with bodyweight exercises. Even better if you can work with a PT to develop a routine that will address your knee injury. Adding bodyweight resistance work to your training routine won’t be as disruptive as going straight to weightlifting. It will also give you a chance to dial in your form (another learning curve on which you can track progress). Many physical therapy practices are offering virtual sessions now, which might help! Another great resource on healing from injury is Injured Athlete’s Toolbox, which addresses more of the psychological challenges with injury.

I wish you the best. We do our best to empower and encourage folks, and it breaks my heart to hear negative takeaways. The feedback is nonetheless helpful. We really are in your corner, and I hope you can feel the support from the community here too. Would love to hear updates on your progress, if you’d be willing to share.

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Any chance you have a link to the podcast? Thank you in advance.