I’ve never done Lamarck, which was a suggestion by Coach Chad on an early podcast: Lamarck and FTP - #10 by Nigel_Doyle
My go-to has always been to do 30-70 minutes at threshold, without breaks and with a negative split where I typically reach my threshold HR after 10-15 minutes. My original threshold heart rate was based on a Friel 30 minute test and refined on similar long(er) efforts. Essentially a Coggan performance test or more recently a Kolie Moore style test.
Hm, I associate the pain I feel on a hard session, long ride, or hard ride generally as a positive. I’ll be uncomfortable now, but later, I have the option to turn that suffering into fitness if I so choose. Swapping out “challenging” instead of “painful” isn’t going to help me, personally.
I do think that historically, the term suffering has been over-used in cycling. I remember a lot of ads back in the mid 2000s, to even just a few years ago, that highlight the ragged cyclist dirty and dusted from a “dreadfully long ride” - (Rapha). There was/is a bit of romanticizing pro-like training which as we all know is silly for folks with different abilities, available training time, or even talent.
Not every session should be painful, (in fact, as we all know, most should be quite comfortable!) but if a cyclist describes a break-through workout and used that word, I wouldn’t find it sad. I’d think, “yep, they’re doing it right.”
Stay for the discourse. I, for one, am very interested in sports psychology.
@russell.r.sage , @WindWarrior , what do you guys think of this workout, regarding good idea of FTP? Especially the way my HR reacts to the O/U?
Carpathian Peak +2 by varmstrong at Thursday, Aug 18 2022 - TrainerRoad
These are 16 Minute intervals that average out to exact FTP
I dunno, the TR scaling for HR makes it hard to see anything. And my over-unders don’t look like that. Carpathian Peak +2 - does it vary between 95% and 105% FTP? I did it a couple years ago using TR app (Kickr direct-drive 2017, Erg, PowerMatch) and putting it on a 95-105% color grid:
It looks similar to my outside rides at threshold.
Have you ever done a long effort at threshold? Do you know your usual threshold HR? Mine varies a little by time of day (lower in morning), cadence, and inside vs outside.
Here is a late afternoon 32-min pacing effort from earlier this year, ftp had been set at 264W and after this effort my coach bumped it up 8W.
Power view:
Slightly more variable power than inside doing Carpathian Peak +2 but basically the same.
And HR view:
My lactate threhold HR (LTHR) is pretty solid and stable since 2016, plus or minus a few beats per minute depending on a few factors (morning-vs-evening, outside temp, etc.).
A couple weeks before I did a 10+ minute pacing effort after 90 minutes of other work, it looked like this:
the instructions for that are to aim for where you perceive a 20-min TT effort to be - I did 11 min at 290W, which if it had been a 20 minute TT that would tell me (95% of 20-min works for me) to go out and shoot for a 275W long effort.
I could show longer 50-70 minute efforts, they all look similar. These benchmark efforts are done a few times a year and usually preceded a week or two by a shorter 10+ minute pacing effort to mentally reset what it feels like to do a longer ftp pacing effort.
Going back to this question, here is a similar workout from 3 days ago, its a 4x8-min at 92% with 4-min rest between:
Its 92% and as expected doesn’t hit LTHR, with recoveries taking about 45 seconds to drop back to upper zone2 HR. Normal cadence.
I reliably see this type of HR response, inside or outside, but of course its flat around here, plus access to good long uphill options, which makes it easier to do “erg-like power outside.”
What I learned in 2016 - get familiar with how your HR responds to longer threshold efforts, and use that to establish your LTHR and judge shorter efforts. This has been my human intelligence (“HI”) FTP detection and has worked well for me for years (and for 3 years cross-referenced and confirmed by Garmin Firstbeat ftp estimation which I receive at least 4 updates a month).
Hope that helps.
Yes, 95% and 105%.
I have not done an actual true effort to determine my heart rate because there are just so many variables. Are you supposed to be “tapered” for efforts like these? I have been too busy training and the only time I taper it is for the last few races.
I did do this effort in a race recently:
Not the clearest breakdown, but that was upper SS effort. Not full threshold effort, I could have gone a bit harder but this was the first main climb of the race and I didn’t want to kill myself. I was also by myself in the front so I was able to pace it the way I wanted to. I tried to keep my HR at around 160 and I was able to do so.
You probably want to avoid the extremes (perfect taper/too fatigued), as the estimates will be heavily biased.
I don’t taper, but I’m fresh. Look at it this way - Carpathian Peak +2 was 3x16 minutes at threshold. That’s 48 total minutes at threshold, did you taper for that?
Easy way to get started IMHO is to do a 30-min Friel test:
No I didn’t taper (probably did way too much leading into this actually with Vo2 Monday, Anaerobic tuesday, Z2 yesterday and then this today)) but if you are trying to find a standard from which to base decisions on, you want to control the variables as much as possible right?
I but I guess if I am using this for training, being in close to the same level of freshness, IE not fresh but not cooked either, is the best place to be.
Thanks
By the way, this man is very angry.
Ha ha, did you read the follow up post linked at the bottom? Here you go:
I’m the IT department of the family, so I understand the frustration although in my case its “did you reboot like I always tell you to do?” and “Oh, that fixed it, what a surprise” 
just kidding I’m a lot more diplomatic.
Freshness is up to your judgement.
My freshest days are on Monday and Friday because I don’t ride on Sunday and Thursday. The 32-min effort this year was done on a Saturday at the end of a 3 week build (before recovery week). Mon-Wed block was ~6 hours and 350 TSS, with Monday as 6x45-sec(30-sec off) max effort sprints sandwiched between 15 min tempo efforts, Two-and-a-half Hour Tuesday endurance (74%), and 3x8-min at 94%. CTL at the time was low 60s, which is enough base training load for me to really hit my stride on training efforts.
After that Mon-Wed block of work, I had two days off with unusual Friday off due to wind/allergies. After those 2 days off I was ready to slay my scheduled shorter threshold workout, using 275 estimate from the earlier 290W “what I perceive my 20-min test pacing to be” results. Out on the road I felt so good that I kept it going for 32 minutes before running out of open road due to sunset. Having done enough of these efforts I could have pushed that out to at least 50 minutes.
So, how does someone do what you are suggesting for a MV or HV plan? Or, do they just do LV and add a Z2 workout in?
I’ve been watching the Dylan Johnson videos on YT and his interview with the guru (forget his name). Basically, it sounds like TR needs to revamp their plans and add in many more easy days (Z2) besides having more intense sessions.
Ideally, I’d like that done for me if I pick a MV or HV plan. Basically, I only do LV or MV because I anticipate not being able to keep up with all the intense rides. Especially as I’m training for triathlon, and not just cycling.
Do I need to manually add in workouts on my own after setting up a LV plan?
TR actually made a set of Polarized plans (still in the experimental stage), with research based in part upon Dr. Seiler (the guru you are likely talking about).
They offer 6-week Base, and 8-week Build options, with the intention of applying an appropriate Specialty phase from the TR library. These tend to align with the 1 or 2 Hard workouts per week with Easy workouts for the rest of whatever volume you choose.
I can’t comment on the complexity added since you are Tri-focused.
Not really the expert here anymore as I don’t use TR any longer since just before adaptive training, but when I did, I would use the MV plan and sub out the weekend sweet spot (Sunday) intervals for a long Z2 ride. But you could just plug in a LV plan and add zone 2 rides to fill out your hours as you want.
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. I will look into it after my next race (end of Sept). Sounds like it will be exactly what I was looking for.
If you were to taper before tough threshold wo, it would help that 1 workout but then why forfeit training for 1 workout? It is not a race.
If you feel need to taper for a thresholdwo or it gets you overly tired then i say your ftp is set too high. Patiently build to higher PL before bumping ftp up.
Yep i have done TR LV and substitue the endurance wo with an outside z2 long ride during weekend.
If time and run/swim allows, i add another TR indoor ride in the mix.
It is much better psychologically to add wo when you can than to do MV and often skip wo
