If the actual watts prescribed has not changed. Can you review (roast?) my history and share some insight on what the new AI was recommending before vs after the update? What is TR recommending in actual watts if I go from old AI FTP of 280 at level 1-ish to new AI FTP of 259 at level 3? Example: if I did the same ride (eg Monitor) before, would the AI give the same watts today as before, regardless of FTP and Levels?
Context: Been using AI FTP for years. Seen steady growth. Love the tool. Been using TR and TrainNow feature mostly as a cross training platform for ultra running. I usually pick one recommended endurance ride and one Anaerobic ride per week for some intensity. As you said in the podcast (which was excellent by the way) the actual FTP is irrelevant, but am I getting the same intensity in my workout?
As you can see, there is an extra interval in the higher-level workout, and the “under” portions of the workout are at a higher percentage of FTP.
We’d rather have you start with that level 3.1 workout and work your way up than start with the 1.1 workout. You’d simply be spending your time with more productive workouts, even with the lower FTP.
Within our library of thousands of workouts, there are all sorts of ways in which we could give you more productive workouts with similar wattage levels but in more productive packages.
Hello Eddie. Thank you for your response. Much appreciated.
I understand your point about Level 1.1 vs. 3.1, assuming the same FTP. What I would like to understand is: What is the impact with the changed FTP by the update? As an example using your scenario: What does the Avalanche Spire workout look like “pre-AI-FTP update” at level 1.1 at 280 watts FTP vs. what does Avalanche Spire 3.1 workout look like at 250 Watts FTP.
Is the NP, TSS, and IF effectively the same, or has it changed?
The big thing with the FTP drops is that you’ll get to do much more productive workouts with higher levels.
Low-level workouts simply aren’t as productive as those with higher levels.
Below is an example of a level 1.1 workout vs a 3.1.
As you can see, there is an extra interval in the higher-level workout, and the “under” portions of the workout are at a higher percentage of FTP.
We’d rather have you start with that level 3.1 workout and work your way up than start with the 1.1 workout. You’d simply be spending your time with more productive workouts, even with the lower FTP.
Within our library of thousands of workouts, there are all sorts of ways in which we could give you more productive workouts with similar wattage levels but in more productive packages.
The part I find confusing about this is that if you improve won’t the AI just keep increasing your FTP to start you over at level 3? And if that is the case won’t the workouts all be a narrow range of levels with relatively shorter intervals and more rest?
Appreciate the input. I understand the Levels and the FTP adjustment. My original question still remains: Are Watts prescribed now more or less than previously?
You can try it out on any workouts you want to compare for yourself. Manually enter an FTP, look at the watt targets on one workout, then change your FTP and do the same on the next workout.
The Avalanche Spire -3 is 5x6 with 1m valleys at 85% FTP and 2m peaks that ascend to 105% FTP with 3m recoveries. So at 280 FTP that is 238W valley and 294 peaks.
The Avalanche Spire -1 is 6x6 with valley at 95% and peak at 105% with 4m recoveries. So at 250 that is 238W valley and 263W peaks.
So, in this example you would be doing an extra interval (6 vs 5) at same valley, but lower peak, and more recovery. My understanding is that this new workout profile is meant to be better training. I guess it is better because you are doing extra set, even though watts/recoveries have been adjusted slightly to make it roughly similar RPE.
You’ve got the right idea here, but keep in mind that my example is somewhat limited because we’ll look at all of the workouts that meet the criteria of your plan, not just those in the same family (such as those in the Avalanche Spire family), so it’s not always about if you’re doing the -3, -1, +1, or +3 version of the same workout, there are plenty of other, potentially better options out there to pick from.
Maybe we’d recommend Carpathian Peak -2 instead of Avalanche Spire… Again, just as an example..
The part I find confusing about this is that if you improve won’t the AI just keep increasing your FTP to start you over at level 3? And if that is the case won’t the workouts all be a narrow range of levels with relatively shorter intervals and more rest?
We still give you FTP detections in the same 28-day intervals as before, so your FTP will only update about once a month. This should give you time to climb up in levels, just like before.
Thanks! If you have the time to respond, I did create a dedicated post for my questions on athlete levels. Basically, I don’t understand how we can progress that many levels in 28 days and am curious about the implications of this on the available workout profiles. Seems like high workout levels would be unattainable because it is moving target. See How do athlete levels work now?
Appreciate the math!!! Is the change in qty of the intervals shown in the example above (5 vs 6) due to the workout itself being 1:15 vs 1:00?
Let’s assume that the duration is not what is driving the change in the workout: is the AI saying that doing 6 efforts between 238 and 263 watts is better than doing 5 efforts between 238 and 294 watts?
The 5 efforts peaking at 294 watts seems a harder workout. Which goes back to my original question, is the Intensity now lower in my workouts?
Simple view - if you look at the workout library there are 21 Threshold workouts of 1 hour and level 1. But 65 workouts at level 3. Effectively starting you at level 3 gives the AI over 3 times as many workouts to pick from so it’s got a lot more options for giving you the right watts to progress. Which includes dialling it down - if you’re already at level 1 and need an easier threshold workout for some reason then effectively you need to drop to a Sweetspot workout. If you’re at Level 3 you can drop to a Level 1 or 2.
Comparing the watts of a Level 1 workout with your old FTP to a Level 3 workout with your lower FTP is neither here nor there. The AI is looking for the watts it thinks you best need to do to balance progression, training stimulus and fatigue management. Having you at a lower FTP and higher threshold level gives it more options to do this.
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