Nah - I like my carbs too muchš
For me, I know I would not sustain a LCHF diet. Instead, Iāve made the effort to cut out processed sugars and high GI carbs, and that has helped me become less reliant (ie not at all) on a gel or coke sugar boost to get through a tough workout, say, VO2max.
Iāve also switched my snacks to be nuts instead of things like toast or granola bars. So I eating an overall much more balanced macro nutrient profile now vs a year or two ago.
You could do this approach.
Based on the below article, plus other research Iāve seen on long rides burning fat, Iāve been working in 4 hr endurance rides into my base training. Not that the benefits of this type of riding is really any new insight - this is part of the Eddie Merckx old school āride lotsā approach, or the āyou have to ride slow to be fastā approach.
@DaveWh Got it. Thanks for the link. 
Thatās awesome. Great approach and sounds like a good balance. Iām nowhere near as low carb as many āhardcoreā keto folksā¦ itās pretty individual per your body but also being so active, we can handle carbs much better. So long as itās the ārightā kind of carbs. Reducing sugar is really where itās at.
I primarily train and/or ride in the morning and I never eat before any training or ride. So Iām typically fasted for around 10-11 hours just from post-dinner & sleeping. Iāve done some really hard mtb rides fasted much longer w/o problem (not trying to do a fasted rideā¦ just waking up later, driving to the trail, etc). Iām never hungry in the morning anymore b/c my body is burning fat from fasting overnight. To answer your question, yes you can do above threshold workouts fasted but my guess is that you have to be fairly well fat adopted. At least 2-3 months is my guess. And well hydrated. Thereās a lot of talk out there that you lose your high end effort w/o carbs but I just havenāt found that to be the case. If you start over w/ Sweet Spot I and ramp up while low carb/fastedā¦ youāll adapt as you go & be ready for the build plans w/o sugar. Check out the āArt & Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance.ā Itās an easy read and will answer a lot of your questions.
I went/tried Keto 10 years ago. For a year or so. Quit it because I couldnāt stand the food choices anymore. And my racing really suffered even though I was mainly into MTB 12h races at that time. Still an intermittent sport,may be different for ultrarunning. Introduced carbs again and saw an immediate positive effect on so many different levels. Especially on how much training I could tolerate. Not just intensity.
These days I simply feed my workouts. Restdays/ easy days will see little carb intake, training days more. Depending on the workout(s). A simple balanced diet.
Despite my chronic carb intake I can easily ride many hours without any food. Getting through this is more mental than pyhsiological for me.
Iāve been doing all my workouts fasted. I did a full round of SSB 1 & 2, build and specialty phases last year, and Iām just about to finish SSB Mid Volume 2 for my new season.
Basically, Iāll eat dinner (sometimes carb heavy, other times not so much), then jump on the trainer the following morning. Iāve found workouts quite difficult at times, but always managed to push through and complete them.
Iām unsure if I should stick to this, or maybe try adding in something pre-ride before sweet spot or above ā Iām thinking English crumpets with maple syrupā¦ Especially if Iām due to start a build phase in a week or twoā¦
I prefer the idea of being āfat adaptedā, but I also want to optimize performance. If eating some fairly simple carbs right before a workout helps me complete it, are there any disadvantages to this approach?
Ideally, you want the best of both - robust fat metabolism, but also train your body to use/process carbs when riding.
Training both of these can be in conflict. My plan this year is to do my base training endurance rides (4hrs or so) with no carbs. Then as the season goes on, gradually increase the intensity of these longer rides, and eat more carbs.
For my trainer sessions - 60-75 min VO2max and threshold sessions - I generally donāt eat any sugar before or during. But do make sure Iām appropriately fueled with good quality carbs 3+ hrs prior.
I usually do these in the evening, and could see them being tougher if I did them in the morning. But many people have posted on this forum that they can get through tough workouts in the morning if they fuel appropriately the night before.
Question? So I did Pierce yesterday (1 hour 15minutes) and only fueled for the first hour with electrolyte drink mix that was at 10 am. I was hoping to stay fasted for Dans the next morning but I felt terrible not eating all day and wanted something in my stomach before bed, so I ate a can of tuna which claims to have zero carbs at midnight. my ride will be at 10am with only a cup of black coffee. my question is? am I in a fasted state or just glycogen depleted?
Sorry I donāt have time to read every post and re-listen to every podcast on the subject and I often get distracted and forget my original question. Iām guessing I at least had a calorie restricted day.
Thanks everyone!
Iām looking to start introducing some fasted endurance rides. Iāve done some reading & found that a few people are suggesting taking in a source of protein either before (something like scrambled eggs) or during (protein drink).
(so the ride isnāt strictly fasted, but low on carbs, which is the main purpose of this type of training).
Is this what any of you guys are doing?
@Djf500 Iām not going to argue your point about the dangers of sugar. Nor the potential for fat adapted performance. However, I think youāve got a very skewed interpretation of the TrainerRoad podcastās general guidance on the topic here.
I believe the gel before, another gel 20 min. in guidance came from guest Amber Pierce based on what she was personally doing for ride fueling as a pro racer. It may have come up during a discussion about fasted/glycogen depleted training, but it was just her saying āhereās what I do,ā which was basically her saying she doesnāt do fasted training.
Over time the regular TrainerRoad podcast trio, Coach Chad in particular, have touched on the subject many times and theyāve never suggested taking in gels as part of a fasted/depleted ride.
Iām not even sure a gel every 20 is a lot of sugar. Thatās 300cal of sugar. I use Tailwind personally and use 3 scoops for 300 calories for 90 min+ intense rides or 2.5+ aerobic rides. On a 4 hour ride like Longfellow, Iāll have 3 bottles of 300cal Tailwind. Thatās less than half of what I burn.
@dbf they definitely encouraged the use of gels during trainer rides. Maybe the 20 mins before was Amberās suggestion but the guys consistently say to hit a gel during a TR ride. Iām pretty sure they said it during that pod in particular and definitely in other pods (Iām a big fan of their pods obviously & love TR!). I donāt think they were saying to do that as part of a āfasted rideā b/c that clearly wouldnāt be a fasted ride anymore. What I wanted to get out there, for anyone interested, is that if you take the time to get fat adopted, you can probably do all these rides w/o fuel. And definitely without sugar/gels. I do it all the time. Iām not elite but I do think itās possible based on my experience and the experience of some of my riding buddies.
@Alen itās not about what you burn. Itās about how much sugar in ingest. Iām not talking about gaining weight, Iām talking about overall health. You are ingesting a lot of sugar on your rides b/c weāve been told that our bodies need sugar to run optimally. Only itās not true. You can run on your own body fat. I have not had a gel in over a year and Iāve done all sorts of tough rides. Iām sure the Tailwind is good product but digesting that much sugar puts a serious strain on your body and thereās another way. Our ancestors didnāt eat sugar all the time to keep movingā¦ it wasnāt possible. And we have that capability too. Thereās a lot of money and momentum in the status quo.
I do all my trainer rides without gels or other sugar - either before or during. I rely on coming into the workout appropriately fueled through my normal meals - with sufficient good quality carbs.
However, for long outside rides, I do need/use carbs during. Mix of real food and gels - gels when the going is more intense.
This for me seems like a good balance between being appropriately fueled, but not pumping my body full of sugars every ride.
@DaveWh absolutely! Whatever works. I donāt claim to have all the answers or to make assumptions about everyoneās effort levels. My main concern in commenting here was the encouragement, on the podcast, to take a gel or two on almost every difficult TR ride. This is very dangerous to our overall health and while it may be effective, itās not necessary. You are living proof that you donāt need to be āfat adaptedā to perform well w/o gels mid-trainer.
@oggie41 No itās not. Fasted ride is only water. I do use electrolytes on really long or hot efforts but no sugar (just a an electrolyte supplement in my water or electrolyte caps). For my outdoor rides Iāll have a cup of coffee 1st. All my trainer rides are no food though. I do these in the morning so itās pretty easyā¦ eat dinner, go to bed, wake up and train. Itās not easy until your body adapts to it. And if you eat a low carb diet, youāre body will adapt to running on fat, and not carbs, quicker. You can then use either fat or carbs as fuel which is pretty cool.
@RLucky82 Did the electrolyte mix have carbs/sugar, etc? Have you fasted before w/o exercise? Have you done low carb/high fat diet? If youāre doing it right, you shouldnāt feel bad at all. In fact, I tend to feel much better on days when I fast. But if youāre not fat adapted, fasting could feel lousy since your body is craving sugar as fuel (look up the āKeto Fluā on youtube). To answer your question, once you eat, youāre no longer in a fasted state. Maybe something super low calorie (5 or 10 caloriesā¦ so a splash of cream in your coffee, etc) wonāt count but a can of tuna breaks a fast. However, you stayed zero carb so that fat adaption still happened which is pretty cool. And it sounds like you fasted for a long time which is great. Fasting is proving to be very healthy. Eating at midnight, not a good idea though. Anytime Iām not feeling well when Iām fasting, itās b/c of low electrolytes. Add some sugar-less electrolytes like Lyte Show to your water throughout the day. And consider committing a few weeks to low carb/high fat so you can reap the benefits of fat adaptation.
Reminds me of the years when the recommendations were to be in the āfat burning zoneā to lose weight and fat was the devil. Itās chique right now to hate on sugar. For the general population, itās probably a good rule of thumb. But on this forum, almost 99% of the people are healthy.
You do realize that when you do fasted workouts, youāre still using sugar as fuel, right? Itās just sugar that is saved as glycogen and fats converted to glucose. The human body is very complex and it doesnāt have on and off switches as you may think it does. At any point in an exercise, it is using fats and sugars and ketones for fuel. The only difference is that the percentages change with intensity. You may teach it to adapt slightly in a certain direction but itās minor for most people.
Furthermore, there is no study that says you will be healthier avoiding sugars in exercise. Sugars wonāt give you diabetes and salt wonāt give you hypertension. Just take it as a general rule of thumb that if you want to be healthy, do the following: donāt be fat, donāt smoke, donāt drink excessively, do your preventative screens, and put on your sunblock. Everything else depends on your genetics and luck.
Fasted rides and low carb diets are great for weight loss at low intensity but not for cyclists trying to perform. Be aware that mitochondria require CHO to reproduce. Losing weight is easy, building and maintaining a Mito base is more valuable overall. Be well